Comeback when stranger calls you "dear"?

[Caracal]

3) Now recall that I mentioned I had told students never to address female professors as 'Miss', etc.  I did this largely motivated by the regular extremely negative reaction evinced over the years on the fora, from, well, female professors who have made it clear they view such behavior as *extremely unacceptable*.  IOW, well, irrespective of the reality that I have overreacted to such behavior myself, issues which I am working on, as I said, well, ahem.... we would not be having this conversation were I a woman.

The institutional context matters. I can tell student to address me as professor or dr. If I tell the person at the airline counter they need to call me Dr. Caracal, I'm a pompous jerk.

[Langue_doc]

3) Now recall that I mentioned I had told students never to address female professors as 'Miss', etc.  I did this largely motivated by the regular extremely negative reaction evinced over the years on the fora, from, well, female professors who have made it clear they view such behavior as *extremely unacceptable*.  IOW, well, irrespective of the reality that I have overreacted to such behavior myself, issues which I am working on, as I said, well, ahem.... we would not be having this conversation were I a woman.

I've had students address me as "Miss", which doesn't seem to be an uncommon practice in NYC. I introduce myself as Professor Lastname on the first day of class, but have never corrected students for addressing me as "Miss", or in a couple of instances "Madam". Other professors/instructors most likely have similar experiences but don't bother to correct students or complain about these terms of address because the students are being quite respectful as evident from their interactions with the professor.

[mahagonny]

If you are a male professor and you suggest it should OK for a student to address a female professor as 'Miss...' you're gonna get bricks thrown at you. Not that I would want to, but just saying.

[kaysixteen]

1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so (it brings to mind, further, the comment made earlier by the person who noted that the professors in his dept do not seem to mind being addressed by their first names by grad students-- when I was in grad school in the 90s, our dept faculty was split between several 30-somethings, who all told students to address them by their first names, and a bunch of 50+ers who, well, did not.   Now the older profs did not say, 'do not address me by my first name', and many if not most of the grad students did do exactly that, but, well, these older professors were still pretty clearly underwhelmed by such behavior.   I myself, following my Miss Manners training (which of course reinforced my prior mindset), never did this myself, nor felt myself put upon by having to call such professors as, well, "professor"). 

2) WRT not expecting the subway ticket taker to address me as 'Doctor', this should be obvious, and of course nothing I have said suggests I expect anyone I encounter in public to address me as that.   'Mr. Sixteen' is fine, though I admit that I would rather have service personnel young enough to be my kid address me as 'sir'.  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do).  As to other people in my social and related orbits, I generally expect, and get without asking for, nor without any semblance of irritation, 'Dr. Sixteen', from  young adults in church, many of whom are my former Christian school students, and 'Dr. Kay', from many of the other church folks (I do not really like this but I understand the sentiment and have never mentioned it to anyone), whereas it would never cross my mind to address my (admittedly 60-something) pastor as anything but 'Pastor'.  And when I am at my retail job, it is first name basis all around, even with the store manager (this is WM corporate culture, probably owing to Arkansas practice-- I have worked for New England retailers who clearly still expect managers to be addressed with titles, and clock-punchers, first name), and, indeed, I also generally do not tell most of the people I work with what level of ed I have.

4) I suppose I could be snarky here and say " don't address me as 'dude', or 'bruh', but, well, ah..."  Dagnabbit, I just do not like being addressed with such terms, at least not by folks to whom I have not extended permission to do so.   I get that I may be overreacting owing to my retail experience (though, in truth, I do clearly recall having these thoughts long before I ever took this job), and that I am a socially conservative guy from an area of the country, however much it now is noted for progressive views on things like abortion and sexual mores, is perhaps the most traditional and deferential region of the country, New England actually much more similar to Old England here, and, well, my views have perhaps also hardened somewhat as I have aged into the 'call me sir' period of life.   

[marshwiggle]

Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.

[Langue_doc]

1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.

As for physicians, I've never encountered physicians who have been threatened by my degree. They are probably aware of the patient's educational background because often times I recall having to write down one's profession when filling out the forms. I once had to demonstrate to my orthopedist how I taught my classes because of my back problems. The physical therapists with whom I am on a first-name basis do know that I teach college students because of the forms I have to fill out and the intake sessions. My PCP and another specialist are also aware of my degree because we start the sessions with a brief catching-up chat. Most medical practitioners in my experience see me as a patient and treat me professionally and medically as a patient. My PCP invariably uses his first name when calling me about the results of a test or when responding to my questions on the patient portal. I've never found my educational background to be a factor in getting the medical treatment that I need other than the orthopedist and physical therapists providing the treatment that I need to be able to walk around a classroom, stand, bend, and do things that we normally do in a classroom.

I suspect how one interacts with students and physicians depends not only on the culture of the institution/city, but also on the medical providers themselves.

[mahagonny]

1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.

I'm sure you're right. They intend to be polite by saying 'Miss' and one would be correct to hear them that way. God bless them as far as I'm concerned.  But they have black privilege. They are exempt from oppressor, sexism or microaggressor status. Those charges are for white American or European males, occasionally females, e.g. 'Karens.'
Also of interest: Black people living in the USA are also statistically less approving of homosexual marriage, transgenderism than are white people, according to anonymous polling that I've read.
What's the explanation for that? Pick what you like I guess. My theory is the pressure to be woke does not reach them in its full potency.

[Langue_doc]

1) Mahag is right.   Languedoc may well not mind if her students address her as Miss, further, but a cursory analysis of the fora (pity the old Chronicle fora still does not have available archives, btw), will absolutely confirm my point.   Many if not most of the female professors here over the years *mind such address greatly*, even though some of them clearly would not actually tell a student so doing not to do so


2)  Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients. (one of the two MDs I have who actually knows I have the degree (the other is my longtime PCP), with whom I have the most chummy relationship by far, actually addresses me as 'Kay' (he is several years my senior, too), but I still call him 'Doc', and would never think to use his first name either, unless, again, he tells me to do so (which, again given our local culture here, I would not be expecting him to do). 

If you're teaching in NYC, you learn to pick your battles. I've taught at least a couple of freshmen comp classes with nary a white student in my class. Most of the students in these classes were immigrant students for whom "Miss" is a polite term of address for one's teachers or instructors. I've never heard any NYC professor complain about students not addressing them as "Professor" because most freshpeeps don't make the transition from "Miss" to "Professor" for at least a couple of years.

I'm sure you're right. They intend to be polite by saying 'Miss' and one would be correct to hear them that way. God bless them as far as I'm concerned.  But they have black privilege. They are exempt from oppressor, sexism or microaggressor status. Those charges are for white American males, occasionally females, e.g. 'Karens.'
Also of interest: Black people living in the USA are also statistically less approving of homosexual marriage, transgenderism than are white people, according to anonymous polling that I've read.
What's the explanation for that? Pick what you like I guess. My theory is the pressure to be woke does not reach them in its full potency.

Nope, nope, nope!

These classes are truly multicultural, with students from all over the world. Of the four dark-skinned students in one of the classes, two were from Haiti, one who had immigrated from a French-speaking African country, (Guinea, I think), and one from the West Indies. The last mentioned was quite disruptive, not because of the country of origin, but because of his personality. Other students had immigrated from countries in South America, the Middle East/North Africa, the Indian subcontinent, and the Philippines. Most of the students had jobs and were a pleasure to teach. I recall having students who worked in stores, as nannies (one student in another class reported that her employers had bought her a laptop when she told them that she had enrolled in college), in the airport (I encountered a student at JFK as I was getting off a red-eye flight), in medical offices, and in fast-food places.

Mahog, you should move to NYC!

[mahagonny]

They're multicultural, sure, but they're still everything but lilly white Yankee ofays. That's why they get the benefit of a doubt*.

On edit: BTW I live in a big city and I teach students from all over the world.

*good intentions attributed to them

[Caracal]

Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.

Professional titles don't usually extend past the particular professional setting anymore, unless you're the local doctor in a small town or something.

I'd be perfectly happy to have students call me by my first name if it was standard practice. However, since it isn't standard practice, it would carry implications that I want to avoid. That's sort of the point with this whole thread. Forms of address exist within social and linguistic contexts.

You can always ask someone to call you something or not call you something. If you're demanding that waiters in restaurants or strangers on the street not use common, inoffensive  forms of address because you think those don't indicate proper deference, you're probably just going to end up looking like a jerk. If you want to ask students in your class to use the standard form of address for you, that is more likely to yield concrete results.

[Puget]

Indeed, I generally go out of my way *not* to let MDs, for instance, actually know I have a doctorate (and with them, their office staff, nurses, etc), because, well, ahem, MDs can be intimidated by PhD patients, if the MD believes the PhD patient is trying to usurp authority or even just assert equality, which generally goes counter to American MD thinking/ practice, wrt patients.

Is it normal for instructors with PhDs to address mature students with MDs as "Doctor" in the classroom? There isn't really equality in the area of one person's professional expertise with another person who has a completely unrelated area of expertise.

Professional titles don't usually extend past the particular professional setting anymore, unless you're the local doctor in a small town or something.

I'd be perfectly happy to have students call me by my first name if it was standard practice. However, since it isn't standard practice, it would carry implications that I want to avoid. That's sort of the point with this whole thread. Forms of address exist within social and linguistic contexts.

You can always ask someone to call you something or not call you something. If you're demanding that waiters in restaurants or strangers on the street not use common, inoffensive  forms of address because you think those don't indicate proper deference, you're probably just going to end up looking like a jerk. If you want to ask students in your class to use the standard form of address for you, that is more likely to yield concrete results.

Yah, professional titles only apply where they are relevant to the particular context and relationship. It would be weird for anyone who isn't your student to call you "Professor" or "Doctor". It is a role title, not one that travels outside that role to other aspects of your life.

As to the idea that MDs are "intimidated" by people with PhDs, well, that seems like a bit of an ego-boosting fantasy. . .

[mamselle]

We seem to have lost that part of the discussion that focused on the inherent layers of sexism implied in the use of overly-familiar greeting patterns, which was the context in which the objections were first raised in the 70s/80s, as I recall them (yes, I was there, then).

The issue, then, at least, was that such forms of address, especially from a male or active (self-perceived) partner towards a female or unwelcoming target of their attentions, was that it was an eerie form of 'grooming' or semi-seductive address that implied pseudo-affection (or even true, but unwanted or unchecked) affection.

In reverse, it had a kind of flirtatious aspect, which women were starting to call out as unworthy of themselves, if they wanted to be perceived as something more substantial than arm candy.

That's the aspect of it I still find objectionable, and I don't think it's ever completely gone away. I know guys in the pick-up bands I encountered in general business gigs at the time had to sometimes be beaten off with a saxophone because if you were younger and even somewhat talented they wanted to approach you on other levels--again, wanted or not.

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"

M.   

[mahagonny]

Random stuff:

1.   You could take men out of the picture entirely, make all women homosexual, and the situation will still be unfair. People who are more attractive than average are in a noticeably different situation from people who look average or less attractive. They get more attention when they find it flattering or can capitalize on it, and they also get more attention when it is nothing but a bother. The problem isn't just men. It's sex.

2.   I'm pretty sure I have lost employment because I wasn't available to the boss as a romantic partner. She did not appreciate my decision. I was quite surprised. Well, I'm not exactly a hunk.

[marshwiggle]

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"

It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

[Caracal]

Somewhere in the national musician's local newspaper, there was a great article about the issue, with the (female) author saying something like, "The reviewers never miss describing the woman's appearance, clothes, and feminine appeal, as if they had to uphold some kind of charm-school standard while being competent on their instrument. You don't expect to see the same reviewer saying something like, 'He had a gorgeous tux, a tight tooshie, and a fine waved do' before commenting on his riffs.'"

It must be pointed out that when reporters mention "She's wearing a Vera Wang dress" on the red carpet, that's not for the (at least straight) male audience. Women place more emphasis on women's appearance than they do on men's.

That's why it's a structural inequity. We all participate in it-you can't avoid it.

Think about the claim you're making. Sure, you are right that media directed more at women spends more time on fashion. You can overdo this point. There's GQ, Esquire and a whole host of smaller operations that do, in fact, cover fashion from a male perspective. But, sure there's more of it for women. Why is that? Well, there's actually a lot more to cover. All the men at the academy awards are wearing the same thing. Not exactly-there are choices around the margins-what kind of lapel will the tux have, should you wear a cummerbund or not-you could always do something crazy and have the tux or the tie be non standard color! Again I promise you that there is more coverage than you would think about these choices directed mostly at straight men. But still, there's just a much, much larger range of options for women and more to say about those options.

That's not just at the academy awards, women just have a lot more options in how they dress for almost anything. I actually wear jackets and ties to teach, but I have one suit. It's a nice suit, its dark grey, it fits well. If I'm going to a wedding, or a funeral, I'm going to wear that suit. Chances are that my wife probably can't wear the same thing to a wedding and a funeral.

It makes sense, given that difference, that women-on average-spend more time thinking about clothes than men-there's more to think about. If you have to spend more time thinking about something, you're more lily to get interested in it. Again, it's not universal-plenty of women don't find fashion very interesting.  In the process of trying to get a better teaching wardrobe, I got interested in men's tailored clothes and once you do that, you start noticing things on other people. But, there's a structural difference that explains pretty clearly why more women are more interested in fashion. That structural difference is what Mamselle is talking about. I'm sure some male musicians spend time on their clothes and appearance and it makes them feel more prepared and confident for a performance. However, I'm also sure that lots of them just wear the cheapest acceptable version of whatever is standard because nobody really pays too much attention and they just want to concentrate on their playing. Women can do that, but they can't count on everyone ignoring what they wear or how they look.