Using Irony to Convey Stuff

[mahagonny]

Wife says my students (undergrads) don't understand my use of irony because of their age. It's a 'brain development still in progress' thing. I say no, they probably get it, but it just isn't evident from their facial expression. I do notice that when I run into them at the mall five, ten years later they seem to have much more complex reactions in conversation. Do you have a clear idea what your students can understand. How do you decide?

[marshwiggle]

Wife says my students (undergrads) don't understand my use of irony because of their age. It's a 'brain development still in progress' thing. I say no, they probably get it, but it just isn't evident from their facial expression. I do notice that when I run into them at the mall five, ten years later they seem to have much more complex reactions in conversation. Do you have a clear idea what your students can understand. How do you decide?

I'm not sure it's entirely (or even mostly) developmental. Young people, especially now, are raised in an extremely earnest culture. Subtlety and nuance are bad, and so things like irony and sarcasm are lost. (Overt scorn is far more accepted than subtle sarcasm.) The very fact that ironic or sarcastic statements could be taken at face value makes them forbidden.

Wearing their hearts, (or more likely, their politics), on their sleeve is the socially acceptable norm.

[Parasaurolophus]

Wife says my students (undergrads) don't understand my use of irony because of their age. It's a 'brain development still in progress' thing. I say no, they probably get it, but it just isn't evident from their facial expression. I do notice that when I run into them at the mall five, ten years later they seem to have much more complex reactions in conversation. Do you have a clear idea what your students can understand. How do you decide?

I'm not sure it's entirely (or even mostly) developmental. Young people, especially now, are raised in an extremely earnest culture. Subtlety and nuance are bad, and so things like irony and sarcasm are lost. (Overt scorn is far more accepted than subtle sarcasm.) The very fact that ironic or sarcastic statements could be taken at face value makes them forbidden.

Wearing their hearts, (or more likely, their politics), on their sleeve is the socially acceptable norm.

This is really, really not the online world as I know it. Or, indeed, as I avoid it. My sense of kids these days is exactly the opposite. Meme culture (shudder) is all about irony and sarcasm.

[marshwiggle]

Wife says my students (undergrads) don't understand my use of irony because of their age. It's a 'brain development still in progress' thing. I say no, they probably get it, but it just isn't evident from their facial expression. I do notice that when I run into them at the mall five, ten years later they seem to have much more complex reactions in conversation. Do you have a clear idea what your students can understand. How do you decide?

I'm not sure it's entirely (or even mostly) developmental. Young people, especially now, are raised in an extremely earnest culture. Subtlety and nuance are bad, and so things like irony and sarcasm are lost. (Overt scorn is far more accepted than subtle sarcasm.) The very fact that ironic or sarcastic statements could be taken at face value makes them forbidden.

Wearing their hearts, (or more likely, their politics), on their sleeve is the socially acceptable norm.

This is really, really not the online world as I know it. Or, indeed, as I avoid it. My sense of kids these days is exactly the opposite. Meme culture (shudder) is all about irony and sarcasm.

Maybe that's not so different; memes (especially online) are not direct communication between individuals. Embracing a meme identifies group membership, so there's no ambiguity about who's in and who's out.

[the_geneticist]

I'd advise you to not use irony.  The power imbalance between you and your students means that they are not likely to question if there is a difference between what you said & what you meant.  And irony is lost on folks where English is not their first language, the neurodivergent, and the more naive/sheltered/earnest.

Overall, I vote no on irony, sarcasm, idioms, jokes, and other "hard to understand without lots of context & familiarity" parts of language & communication.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I tend not to use irony in class - not that I'm against it, just doesn't come naturally to me when teaching. But I make jokes here and there, and the students seem amused.

[Sun_Worshiper]

On a related note: My wife tells me that I'm not funny and shouldn't joke in class, so it was great fun to show her comments in teaching evaluations that highlighted my sense of humor.

[sinenomine]

On a related note: My wife tells me that I'm not funny and shouldn't joke in class, so it was great fun to show her comments in teaching evaluations that highlighted my sense of humor.

Now, that's irony!

[mahagonny]

On a related note: My wife tells me that I'm not funny and shouldn't joke in class, so it was great fun to show her comments in teaching evaluations that highlighted my sense of humor.

Now, that's irony!

I have read multiple teaching evaluations where students said they enjoyed my 'dry sense of humor.' But the fact that they identify it as 'dry' suggests to me that though they get the humorous irony even though I don't let on that I think I'm saying something funny, other students are not 'getting' what they're getting. And they may know that, and it doesn't hurt anyone to have a chance to see that their perceptiveness is above average.
Or maybe the other students also get the joke but are thinking 'I wish Professor M. would just stop.' Who knows?
I wouldn't use sarcasm, because I think it's too acerbic. But irony, yes sometimes.
For example 'I'm showing you a copy of the book I wrote. For you to purchase one would be entirely optional. Being naturally modest, I don't even like promoting myself, but the publisher insists that all unbelievably exemplary work must be properly promoted.'
My wife also thinks most younger students don't get self-effacement or self-deprecation. I know some faculty who don't seem to get it either, although again, I'm not sure.
I think I read that stroke survivors may often appear 100% recuperated, but will not 'get' intentionally ironic communication. So I thought maybe it's a specific part of the brain that does that.

[marshwiggle]

My wife also thinks most younger students don't get self-effacement or self-deprecation. I know some faculty who don't seem to get it either, although again, I'm not sure.

Isn't that "owning your privilege"? Or is the problem that people who don't count as "privileged" don't get the idea of it as a normal human thing, rather than something necessary for the privileged.

[fishbrains]

I'd advise you to not use irony.  The power imbalance between you and your students means that they are not likely to question if there is a difference between what you said & what you meant.  And irony is lost on folks where English is not their first language, the neurodivergent, and the more naive/sheltered/earnest.

Overall, I vote no on irony, sarcasm, idioms, jokes, and other "hard to understand without lots of context & familiarity" parts of language & communication.

Yes, irony/dark humor is like love or food: not everyone gets it.

Unfortunately, a lot of these people get to evaluate us--including our administrators.

[Caracal]

The power imbalance between you and your students means that they are not likely to question if there is a difference between what you said & what you meant. 
Overall, I vote no on irony, sarcasm, idioms, jokes, and other "hard to understand without lots of context & familiarity" parts of language & communication.

I agree on the first part, I wouldn't go so far on the second. I think to be a successful instructor, you have to find the right edited version of yourself. Do less of all of those things, but if you naturally do a lot of it and you try to do none you'll end up seeming like a robot.

[Caracal]

My wife also thinks most younger students don't get self-effacement or self-deprecation. I know some faculty who don't seem to get it either, although again, I'm not sure.

That isn't about age. It's about positionally. Self deprecation can work well when the audience is your peers. It's a way of indicating to people that you're not too impressed with yourself and that they can be at ease around you. It often doesn't work well when there are big power imbalances. If you're telling a colleague about a class where your brain turned to mush and you couldn't manage to string a coherent sentence together, they will probably relate and appreciate hearing that this happens to other people too. In a job interview, that's not really the kind of story you want to tell. It works the other way too. Nobody really wants to hear that the person in charge sucks at their job.

In very small doses, I think it can work in the classroom. Students do like to see that you don't take yourself too seriously, but you have to make sure it's only about things that don't call into question your basic competence. It's ok for me to make fun of myself for my inability to operate the lights or the projector, but nobody wants to hear me talk about my disorganization.

[mahagonny]

Thank you all for the help.

[Wahoo Redux]

I wouldn't read too much into classroom reactions from students.  Their visceral expressions can be muted or exaggerated by all sorts of stuff external to the classroom.  If they don't seem to be "getting the joke," it might just be that they are tired, stressed about their test that afternoon, or thinking about getting something to eat.  Adults, with their fully developed brains, can be the same way.

I've just learned to be very careful about how I joke with them, and I don't take their reactions personally.