Using Irony to Convey Stuff

[dismalist]

Kron is right, but things are even easier.

Not too long ago I described on this board that the U Chicago PhD program in econ admitted ca. 60 students per year and told them "look to your left and right--half of you won't be here for the second year." Apparently, this is no longer true. [Must be getting soft or something. :-)] What is true is that about 25 students get admitted each year, but only about 15 graduate each year, i.e. a dropout rate of 40%.

This still sounds high to me in a comparative basis, but my point is a different one: All this is easily found public information!

Why shouldn't even undergraduates consider their chances of success when choosing to attend various colleges and universities? Quality must go down the tubes if everybody has a right to graduate. There must be a credible threat of failure, but colleges can choose their quality, and students can choose their desired level of risk of failure from public data.

[the_geneticist]

I don't see any benefit to saying how many folks have failed before.  It's not like you have to maintain a quota and every cohort is different. 

I much prefer the "Here is what you need to do to succeed" method.  Your standards are the same, the message just comes across much better if you are showing how to succeed rather than what failure looks like.

[dismalist]

I don't see any benefit to saying how many folks have failed before.  It's not like you have to maintain a quota and every cohort is different. 

I much prefer the "Here is what you need to do to succeed" method.  Your standards are the same, the message just comes across much better if you are showing how to succeed rather than what failure looks like.

Tell everybody what needs to be done to succeed year after year, and some average success rate will emerge. One minus that is the average failure rate. We mean the same thing.:-)

[marshwiggle]

I don't see any benefit to saying how many folks have failed before.  It's not like you have to maintain a quota and every cohort is different. 

I much prefer the "Here is what you need to do to succeed" method.  Your standards are the same, the message just comes across much better if you are showing how to succeed rather than what failure looks like.

Here's a question for forumites: Who's the student coming to your office two days before the final exam asking about what they need to do to succeed? How often is it the person who can't, (or only can with a miracle), mathematically pass?

In other words, the students who are most likely to fail are those most clueless that failure is an option. That is the message that those students truly need to get, however it is delivered.

[the_geneticist]

It sometimes happens, but I would have already told them about the mathematical inability to score enough points to pass.
My advice is to talk with their academic advisor and focus on their other classes.  It's too late to drop (usually, most places).

[marshwiggle]

It sometimes happens, but I would have already told them about the mathematical inability to score enough points to pass.
My advice is to talk with their academic advisor and focus on their other classes.  It's too late to drop (usually, most places).

The point is, by the time they're in that state, they're beyond any chance of success. Trying to warn them up front is the point of the blunt "failure is a real option" message, however it's delivered.

[FishProf]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

[the_geneticist]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

Wow, this is so good I may have to steal it from you.  A message that everyone can succeed, failure is still possible, but not pre-determined.

I've also realized that marshwiggle and I were probably talking about two different groups of students as far as worrying about failure.  I'm at a big, public HSU and more worried about not scaring away our already feeling like maybe they don't belong at college students. But I've also taught at an tiny, expensive SLAC and those students were much more likely to feel entitled to a passing score, regardless of their level of achievement.  Those groups need different messaging.

[FishProf]

Wow, this is so good I may have to steal it from you.

Borrow away. I may have appropriated it myself in the depths of time.

[marshwiggle]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

Wow, this is so good I may have to steal it from you.  A message that everyone can succeed, failure is still possible, but not pre-determined.

I've also realized that marshwiggle and I were probably talking about two different groups of students as far as worrying about failure.  I'm at a big, public HSU and more worried about not scaring away our already feeling like maybe they don't belong at college students. But I've also taught at an tiny, expensive SLAC and those students were much more likely to feel entitled to a passing score, regardless of their level of achievement.  Those groups need different messaging.

I think my style is probably much like yours; I don't do the "look to the left.." thing. But I hate the end of term when people who have basically blown stuff off come to me wanting to know what *they can do. My preferred response would be to be blunt about how they've dug their own graves, but I don't put it in so many words. (Of all of the people who failed the midterm, including the ones who didn't submit a single assignment, none of them dropped the course. Shoot me now.)

Scaring people like that off in advance would be a blessing.


*Or more correctly, what I can be talked into doing.

[apl68]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

Now that sounds like a good way to get the message across!  At a minimum it puts them on notice that they can't expect an easy A or an effortless gentleman's D.

[apl68]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

Wow, this is so good I may have to steal it from you.  A message that everyone can succeed, failure is still possible, but not pre-determined.

I've also realized that marshwiggle and I were probably talking about two different groups of students as far as worrying about failure.  I'm at a big, public HSU and more worried about not scaring away our already feeling like maybe they don't belong at college students. But I've also taught at an tiny, expensive SLAC and those students were much more likely to feel entitled to a passing score, regardless of their level of achievement.  Those groups need different messaging.

I think my style is probably much like yours; I don't do the "look to the left.." thing. But I hate the end of term when people who have basically blown stuff off come to me wanting to know what *they can do. My preferred response would be to be blunt about how they've dug their own graves, but I don't put it in so many words. (Of all of the people who failed the midterm, including the ones who didn't submit a single assignment, none of them dropped the course. Shoot me now.)

Scaring people like that off in advance would be a blessing.

And the honest but not-so-blunt method is probably the best way to do that.  It still won't work with everybody, but then probably neither would the old-fashioned blunt method.

[ciao_yall]

I usually tell my students  "Historically, about X% of students do not pass tis course, be it failing, dropping early,  or withdrawing.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Here is how to give yourself the best chance of succeeding...."

1) They know failure is a possibility (although some refuse to believe)
2) They know tr is not preordained, and
3) They have been informed about how best to be in the NotX%.

It also seems to spook those who don't want to do the work or mistakenly think my class is an easy A.

Now that sounds like a good way to get the message across!  At a minimum it puts them on notice that they can't expect an easy A or an effortless gentleman's D.

Agreed!

[marshwiggle]

I think my style is probably much like yours; I don't do the "look to the left.." thing. But I hate the end of term when people who have basically blown stuff off come to me wanting to know what *they can do. My preferred response would be to be blunt about how they've dug their own graves, but I don't put it in so many words. (Of all of the people who failed the midterm, including the ones who didn't submit a single assignment, none of them dropped the course. Shoot me now.)

Scaring people like that off in advance would be a blessing.

And the honest but not-so-blunt method is probably the best way to do that.  It still won't work with everybody, but then probably neither would the old-fashioned blunt method.

Some profs on here have talked about embracing criticism on RateMyProfs, etc. for being tough graders since it has the effect of making slackers avoid taking their courses or sections. Even though I don't do it myself, I support all kinds of techniques by profs to drive away slackers up front, since the slackers are a drag on the system for a whole lots of reasons, including the way they demotivate their peers who get the impression that working hard isn't really necessary. Undermining other students' success is one of the greatest costs of hanging on to them.

[fosca]

Some profs on here have talked about embracing criticism on RateMyProfs, etc. for being tough graders since it has the effect of making slackers avoid taking their courses or sections. Even though I don't do it myself, I support all kinds of techniques by profs to drive away slackers up front, since the slackers are a drag on the system for a whole lots of reasons, including the way they demotivate their peers who get the impression that working hard isn't really necessary. Undermining other students' success is one of the greatest costs of hanging on to them.

I used to be glad that the slackers got driven away, but where I am now I'm finding that only includes the slackers that know to check me out online; I'm therefore getting the absolutely clueless students and the ones who wait too long to get into any other class (one of my classes, which has a cap of 38, had 48 students add and drop the course before it even started, possibly because either they signed on until they could get into another section or they checked RMP or Facebook after they had added the class and fled).  The absolutely clueless and the terminal procrastinators don't make good students either.