Handling grad student

[Vid]

Folks,

I have a grad student who is very close to graduation. He is working on some type of AI-related research which is new. I have difficulty making him understand and incorporate conceptual and theoretical approaches into the algorithms. When I try to explain the concept he refuses to incorporate it. last time we were discussing some comments that we received from his committee member and I was explaining to him how X, Y,Z can be integrated with the AI algorithms to address the comments. He looked at my face and said "you donot know anything"? I left his desk and stopped discussing it with him.

What would be your advice to handle such a student? he is the only one in my lab that is hard to manage. 

Thank you.

[Parasaurolophus]

If he said that to me, I'd dump him. After all, if he thinks I know nothing, then what am I doing supervising him?

In fact, dumping him is a kindness, since my letter of reference would not be very laudatory. And if he refuses to address feedback, then he's going to fail, and nobody wants to be in harge of a student who fails.

So dump him. You can always take him back when he learns to be an adult instead of the insufferable shitwhistle he is now.

[AJ_Katz]

I'm surprised that you say he is close to graduation.  How could he get so far without this type of attitude being discovered until now?  I suppose the covid years might explain some of it. 

I would have a meeting to address this behavior and expectations for his progress in the program.  In advance, I would write a letter that outlines expectations for your professional interactions and make a list of tasks that he needs to complete.  For this person, you may need to be explicit about what it means to "complete" tasks, since he sounds like the kind of person that will pour their time into anything other than what you've asked them to do and use that as a way to get out of it.  If they do not complete the list of tasks to a satisfactory level by a certain deadline, let him know that he will either lose his funding, be put on probation, need to switch to a new advisor, or all of the above. 

I've had to do something like this before with a graduate student.  She was struggling to maintain progress, had an erratic work routine, and sometimes had attitude with professors.  In wrote a letter and then scheduled a meeting with her to review it together.  In the letter, I gave her an explicit description of the expectations for her work routine, progress, and interactions.  I also affirmed to her my commitment and what she could expect from me in return.  She had the choice to agree to the expectations so she could finish the PhD or she could opt for the MS degree and earlier completion date instead.  I put my initials on the form next to my responsibilities and gave her time to review and consider the offer.  A couple of days later, we met again and we both signed the agreement with her decision made -- to stay in the PhD program.  There were tears involved, but she was going down the wrong path prior to that and the meeting seemed to keep her on the rails.  While she did end up graduating, she was not successful in making a post-graduation career transition and has continued working in a service industry job.  This was one of those situations in which the student was pursuing the PhD for the wrong reasons and not in it for a career.

[Vid]

Thank you AJ_Katz & Parasaurolophus.

Yes, I feel COVID can explain some of his attitudes. He is aggressive and lacks social skills in how to disagree respectfully. Last year, he had a conflict with a female grad student and I gave him a warning notice. I was thinking to terminate him and this is the reason I am asking for your feedback here.

I funded him for almost 4.5 years and he has 4-5 outstanding papers under review, software, etc.

Anyway, civility is not something you can teach people!

[downer]

I would have thought civility was quite straightforward to teach and has been central to teaching, even at the graduate level.

Whether you can teach civility to jerks might be another matter.

[mleok]

he has 4-5 outstanding papers under review, software, etc.

I guess I have a hard time viewing AI papers as outstanding when they are devoid of theoretical or conceptual approaches. It sounds like you failed to shape him appropriately when you had the chance, and now that he's about to finish, he doesn't care, since he'll likely be going into industry.

[AJ_Katz]

Find out if your university has anger management training and include that training as part of a bargaining letter to this student.  Without proper documentation of performance / behavior issues with this student, it will be difficult for you to argue that he should otherwise not graduate. 

At some level, I do think there is a responsibility as an advisor to tell a student when they are going off the rails.  Your student's behavior will hold him back in his career and you should tell him that.  But also know that some people don't care and no matter how much help you try to provide, they just won't change.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink!  One of my peers from graduate school has no tact or professionalism and he continues to jump from job-to-job.  He's burned many bridges over the years.  While I think it gets him down sometimes that he is not at the same level in his career as some of his peers, he prefers the day-to-day lab work over any type of management responsibility, so in some ways, I think it is okay and he seems happy with the work. 

After he graduates, don't write recommendation letters for this guy if you have doubts about his qualifications for a job.  If you can't write a positive letter, don't write one at all.  I've heard of people who didn't get a job because one of their former advisors / committee members wrote a negative letter -- don't be that advisor.  It makes you look bad to write a negative letter.  Sure, there are tactful ways to mention a person's strengths and weaknesses, but if there are serious doubts, just say no to the request.

[mamselle]

he has 4-5 outstanding papers under review, software, etc.

I guess I have a hard time viewing AI papers as outstanding when they are devoid of theoretical or conceptual approaches. It sounds like you failed to shape him appropriately when you had the chance, and now that he's about to finish, he doesn't care, since he'll likely be going into industry.

Maybe a semantic misunderstanding?

I.e., did the OP mean 'outstanding' to say, "not yet completed," or "of very good quality "?

M.

[mleok]

he has 4-5 outstanding papers under review, software, etc.

I guess I have a hard time viewing AI papers as outstanding when they are devoid of theoretical or conceptual approaches. It sounds like you failed to shape him appropriately when you had the chance, and now that he's about to finish, he doesn't care, since he'll likely be going into industry.

Maybe a semantic misunderstanding?

I.e., did the OP mean 'outstanding' to say, "not yet completed," or "of very good quality "?

M.

Hmm, good point. Perhaps the OP can clarify?

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

...I have a grad student who is very close to graduation...

...When I try to explain the concept he refuses to incorporate it...

...I funded him for almost 4.5 years and he has 4-5 outstanding papers under review, software, etc...

Is it possible that your suggestions are perceived as moving the goalposts just before graduation?

Additionally, your previous post in another thread (see below) indicates that AI-related research may indeed be outside of your area of expertise.

https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=2261.0

Folks: Considering most of the NSF programs in my research area are shifting towards computing, I am really thinking about applying for an online MS degree in Computer Science in a top research university (please don't call me crazy:-) I really love computer science/data science/programming)! but not sure if it is going to impact my research program and my tenure process. My background is in Engineering and maybe I could use/transfer some of my MS/PhD credits.

[Vid]

Thank you, all.

Previous papers focus on other aspects of AI in my field that eventually will be integrated to shape his dissertation. we got some new comments from one of his committee members who want him to incorporate some theoretical approaches into the algorithms. This is not pure computer science research but rather applied engineering research.

Anyway, he just wants to graduate soon (he has no job offer yet, got interviews with Google and Amazon with no success) and leave and doesn't want to explore further. Last year he said I would like to stay in academia and search for a good postdoc after graduation. But he changed his mind in the spring of 2022 and said I want to join the industry (this is the reason he applied for Google and Amazon) after he was declined by Google and Amazon he again changed his mind in the summer of 2022 and said I want to stay in academia!!...he really confuses me!

Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert: I am using AI in my research as well. Also, he has a committee member from Computer Engineering/AI-related discipline. His research is in applied AI (funded by NSF). 

[kaysixteen]

This is probably a stupid question, but i do not suppose he got any feedback from Google or Amazon?   Traditionally corporate America has been much more eager to offer feedback for rejected interviewees than academia...?

If he is close to graduation, has written multiple 'outstanding' papers, etc., exactly what is he doing wrong?  I agree with the poster who suggested that he likely sees that perhaps goalpost shifting may be taking place?

[mleok]

If this is simply an application of AI/ML/DNNs, then why is a theoretical or conceptual approach even necessary? It doesn't advance his interests, and to be honest, adding this isn't going to improve his academic prospects any this late in the game.

[Volhiker78]

This is probably a stupid question, but i do not suppose he got any feedback from Google or Amazon?   Traditionally corporate America has been much more eager to offer feedback for rejected interviewees than academia...?

Kay - when I worked in corporate environment, we were extremely reluctant to offer feedback to rejected candidates.  One never knows but Vid's comment: He is aggressive and lacks social skills in how to disagree respectfully.    would be a huge red flag in industry.  If that came across in an interview, it would be a non-starter. 

[mamselle]

Lawsuits have been based on innocuous-sounding feedback comments in both academic and corporate arenas.

The denied applicant uses the comment as a basis for their own deep-dig research into competitors' backgrounds,  education,  and publications, and tries to "win" the position they were "unfairly denied."

Even if the effort is unsuccessful, the litigation chews up a lot of money and time in lawyers' retention fees and filing costs, so neither schools nor industries do that as a matter of course, nor have they for quite awhile...it was explained to me c. 1998 at one school, and at a corporate pharma c. 2001, so it's standard practice by now.

M.