Handling grad student

[Kron3007]

Ok, let me pose a hypothetical-- OP has ordered student to get some psychotherapy in order, presumably, to be allowed to continue in his doctoral program.   What happens if the kid tells OP to go pound sand?

At my department, this would likely get elevated to the grad coordinator.  They would act as a third party mediator and speak to each side independently, then usually together to see if there is a way to find a resolution.

If that failed, the grad coordinator would have to make some tough decisions.  In this case, it would likely be mostly he said, she said, as I doubt the student version of the story is the same.  For a student this far into the program, if it could t be resolved, I think they would end up defending with another committee.

[mamselle]

It's not "some psychotherapy."

It's behavior-management based courses with discrete goals and expected outcomes.

Reportable completion satisfies the contract: observable changes (or their absence) will also be noted as the student moves towards finishing other parts of their doctoral program.

They can still go through all the motions and ignore the class content, but they can't say they were never informed as to expectations and goals for their behaviour.

M.

[research_prof]

Ok, let me pose a hypothetical-- OP has ordered student to get some psychotherapy in order, presumably, to be allowed to continue in his doctoral program.   What happens if the kid tells OP to go pound sand?

The OP can fire the student and the student will become a problem of the program (not the OP). The program can decide whether to keep the student or let them go.

Btw, I would personally never ask a student to kind of "fix" their personality. I see my role as giving them feedback in terms of their work and also professional behavior. I would not ask them to get some psychotherapy though. If I see that a student does not take my feedback into account or acts unprofessionally, I will give them a few warnings and opportunities. If they do not improve, I let them go. I do not see myself as being their mom or dad. I am their academic advisor and my role is different than a parent.

[Ruralguy]

Most modern HR departments (I know that's sort of a "4 letter word" around here) offer some sort of counseling as a benefit of employment, either as medical insurance backed, or as a referral to a counseling center they know of for particular issues. Likewise for student health packages. Its not a big deal. Its not brainwashing. Its a bit of behavioral modification tips, and so forth. It can be very helpful. It should be seen as nothing more than what you would do for any other malady getting in the way of your job, which this is (for the student). Its never a great idea to have that be *mandated*, but if that's the condition you want, then so be it (make sure its legal though...I think it may not be outside of court mandates).

[Puget]

Most modern HR departments (I know that's sort of a "4 letter word" around here) offer some sort of counseling as a benefit of employment, either as medical insurance backed, or as a referral to a counseling center they know of for particular issues. Likewise for student health packages. Its not a big deal. Its not brainwashing. Its a bit of behavioral modification tips, and so forth. It can be very helpful. It should be seen as nothing more than what you would do for any other malady getting in the way of your job, which this is (for the student). Its never a great idea to have that be *mandated*, but if that's the condition you want, then so be it (make sure its legal though...I think it may not be outside of court mandates).

Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that's not true. Employers have pretty wide leverage to require counseling or training as a condition of continued employment when there is an issue with an employee. Likewise universities can certainly require such things as a condition of remaining enrolled or returning from a medical leave. How helpful it is to require attendance if someone does not want to participate is another question, but I think it is entirely legal in the US.

[Kron3007]

Ok, let me pose a hypothetical-- OP has ordered student to get some psychotherapy in order, presumably, to be allowed to continue in his doctoral program.   What happens if the kid tells OP to go pound sand?

The OP can fire the student and the student will become a problem of the program (not the OP). The program can decide whether to keep the student or let them go.

Btw, I would personally never ask a student to kind of "fix" their personality. I see my role as giving them feedback in terms of their work and also professional behavior. I would not ask them to get some psychotherapy though. If I see that a student does not take my feedback into account or acts unprofessionally, I will give them a few warnings and opportunities. If they do not improve, I let them go. I do not see myself as being their mom or dad. I am their academic advisor and my role is different than a parent.

Not here.  The professor would need to show a documented history of problems and the actions they took to correct them.  You cant simply drop a student where I am.  Students have rights, and there is a process, for good reason.

However, I am in Canada so it is quite possible that things are different south of the border.  Probably also depends on what state you happen to be in.

[Ruralguy]

OK, I dial back the "legal" comment and just say that it may not be the sort of thing permitted where you are, as it is a strict measure.  Be careful.

[kaysixteen]

Awright I am confused.   I get that the OP is in a STEM field, and grad school works differently in STEM.  Humanities grad students are not in any real sense 'employed'  by their dissertation advisers or even depts, especially if they are not being paid as a TA.  And if the school is a state school, the student's rights to medical autonomy (think carefully on this, pro-choicers) are even greater.  The student could be defenestrated from the program if his behavior is dangerous or threatening (and perhaps allowed to remain then if he completes some sort of behavior modification therapy), but this would have to be demonstrated legally, and the legal bar would be very high.   Simply having a fellow grad student make a complaint of unwanted behavior would itself just be insufficient, especially if that behavior was unsubstantiated and/or the alleged conduct was not itself illegal.   And certainly, telling the adviser that he is 'ignorant', or some such verbiage cannot possibly be said to meet such requirements, especially, as I said, if the adviser is not paying the student for being a TA.  I see a whole host of potential problems here, if we are going to allow professors to require such behavioral modification therapy for student actions that would not be illegal, or be threatening illegal actions (itself probably also illegal)--- like it or not, I myself, back in the 90s, being a substantially more politically conservative chap then, as well as a strident evangelical, made various remarks that I suspect most people here would disapprove of, based largely on my religious and political beliefs.   None of these remarks were illegal, even in the blue state we were in ,none threatened illegal actions, and I certainly did nothing illegal (of course, I was not involved with any fellow grad students, female or male, in any way that could perhaps have led to such an allegation, and I was also never a TA).  But if my advisor had threatened me with explusion unless I got some sort of psychotherapy for behavior modification, I would have viewed this as anti-evangelical animus and unconstitutional state interference with my religious rights, and I would have sought legal help.   And there would have been plenty of lawyers in various religious groups willing to help me.   

[Kron3007]

Awright I am confused.   I get that the OP is in a STEM field, and grad school works differently in STEM.  Humanities grad students are not in any real sense 'employed'  by their dissertation advisers or even depts, especially if they are not being paid as a TA.  And if the school is a state school, the student's rights to medical autonomy (think carefully on this, pro-choicers) are even greater.  The student could be defenestrated from the program if his behavior is dangerous or threatening (and perhaps allowed to remain then if he completes some sort of behavior modification therapy), but this would have to be demonstrated legally, and the legal bar would be very high.   Simply having a fellow grad student make a complaint of unwanted behavior would itself just be insufficient, especially if that behavior was unsubstantiated and/or the alleged conduct was not itself illegal.   And certainly, telling the adviser that he is 'ignorant', or some such verbiage cannot possibly be said to meet such requirements, especially, as I said, if the adviser is not paying the student for being a TA.  I see a whole host of potential problems here, if we are going to allow professors to require such behavioral modification therapy for student actions that would not be illegal, or be threatening illegal actions (itself probably also illegal)--- like it or not, I myself, back in the 90s, being a substantially more politically conservative chap then, as well as a strident evangelical, made various remarks that I suspect most people here would disapprove of, based largely on my religious and political beliefs.   None of these remarks were illegal, even in the blue state we were in ,none threatened illegal actions, and I certainly did nothing illegal (of course, I was not involved with any fellow grad students, female or male, in any way that could perhaps have led to such an allegation, and I was also never a TA).  But if my advisor had threatened me with explusion unless I got some sort of psychotherapy for behavior modification, I would have viewed this as anti-evangelical animus and unconstitutional state interference with my religious rights, and I would have sought legal help.   And there would have been plenty of lawyers in various religious groups willing to help me.

In most STEM programs, students receive their stipend as a GRA.  This is taxable income as far as I am aware.  Whether they are employees could be debated.  Regardless, they have rights that make this a potential dumpster fire.  This is why it is wise to keep good records of this type of thing and consult with the grad coordinator to ensure you are working within the university framework.  It is much better to bring them in early IMO.

[Ruralguy]

They way we treat this with working undergrads is that they are students with part-time work. So, they are in that sense, part time employees. I think it was similar when I was a TA or RA in grad school. The fact that I worked (and most worked) much more than 20 hrs. or whatever was more or less ignored. The problem with employees with student status or even faculty status is that the rules for students or faculty or quirkier than for general employees, and often take precedence. As for what takes precedence and when, its often a nightmare at my school. Nobody seems to really know...other than not firing tenure track profs in this at will state (believe me, there are some who want to, and even some who deserve it) , there are battles over which status is the controlling one. 

[Dismal]

So what ever happened? Did OP decline to continue advising?

[Vid]

Dismal: He's still working in my lab.

I feel the reason for his disrespectful reaction was related to his job offer! He got an offer from an industry service company (he informed me last week) and will join the job shortly. Sometimes kids just want to get the degree and leave!

Thank you.

[research_prof]

Dismal: He's still working in my lab.

I feel the reason for his disrespectful reaction was related to his job offer! He got an offer from an industry service company (he informed me last week) and will join the job shortly. Sometimes kids just want to get the degree and leave!

Thank you.

FYI: If you feel that the student is not ready to graduate, you can always not sign off on their graduation paperwork. The fact that the student has an industry job offer is not your problem or concern.

[Kron3007]

Dismal: He's still working in my lab.

I feel the reason for his disrespectful reaction was related to his job offer! He got an offer from an industry service company (he informed me last week) and will join the job shortly. Sometimes kids just want to get the degree and leave!

Thank you.

FYI: If you feel that the student is not ready to graduate, you can always not sign off on their graduation paperwork. The fact that the student has an industry job offer is not your problem or concern.

Depends where you are.  Students here can technically proceed to defend their thesis without consent from the advisor.  This is not normally done and would be a toxic situation, but it is the Student's thesis and they can theoretically do this. 

More often, in a situation where there are major issues between the student and advisor (or committee), the defense would proceed with another committee setup just for the defense. 

Regardless, the OP stated they have several outstanding papers published, so I would be surprised if there is much justification to prevent them from defending.  It seems the OP is taking the wisest course with this and just getting them finished up and out the door.   

[the_geneticist]

Dismal: He's still working in my lab.

I feel the reason for his disrespectful reaction was related to his job offer! He got an offer from an industry service company (he informed me last week) and will join the job shortly. Sometimes kids just want to get the degree and leave!

Thank you.

You could ask him if he is certain that the company will hire him without his degree.  He needs to defend in front of a committee, submit his thesis, get it approved, etc.  His sudden rush is not your priority.