Charlotte Rampell on needing more college students

[jimbogumbo]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

[mahagonny]

Hmm... what it they are white 'cisgender' straight males? There is nothing on my school's DEI website that mentions anything of any value that they are involved in, except maybe confessing their privilege. Higher education has a problem it has done everything conceivable to deserve.

[marshwiggle]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

An important point:

Meanwhile, K-12 education has a lot of catching up to do so today's children can eventually make it to college. Standardized testing data released Monday showed reading and math scores for fourth through eighth graders have plunged since the pandemic began, down to levels not seen in two decades.

It's not going to be possible to get more people into PSE if they aren't prepared for PSE.

Question: If there are many more programs now to help students, including (especially!) students who might have fallen through the cracks before, why are scores worse now? It can't be all pandemic-related.

[jimbogumbo]

There was a great (too me obvious) analysis of the K-12 "drop" by Eugene Robinson. Again, the hardest hit were inner city and rural students without access to fast internet and with higher concentrations of low income families. Look at the breakdowns, and it was entirely predictable. The only group that saw losses across all levels of income and access was 8th graders, who if you have taught or interacted with schools you know are the worst at completing tasks. Especially when they are at home in bedrooms with social media available.

Robinson also pointed out there were no differences state by state based on Rep vs Dem state government.

I put drop in quotes above as the NAEP scores for many states was actually a stagnation.

[apl68]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

I'd have to agree that it is disturbing to see educational attainment, including attainment in higher education, declining like it is.  We're not going to have the well-developed human capital we need for the future.  We need those educated workers.

[marshwiggle]

There was a great (too me obvious) analysis of the K-12 "drop" by Eugene Robinson. Again, the hardest hit were inner city and rural students without access to fast internet and with higher concentrations of low income families. Look at the breakdowns, and it was entirely predictable. The only group that saw losses across all levels of income and access was 8th graders, who if you have taught or interacted with schools you know are the worst at completing tasks. Especially when they are at home in bedrooms with social media available.

From the linked article:

The declines registered were particularly troubling given that American academic performance was already shaky. In early 2020, before the pandemic upended schools, NAEP test scores in both reading and math declined for 13-year-old students, the first drop registered since the tests started to be administered in 1969.

It started before the pandemic.

[dismalist]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

Well, it's descriptively better than most higher ed interest group pieces.

The analysis, or the rhetoric, is misleading. "We actually need more people going to, and ultimately graduating from, college." Who's this "we", and what does "need " mean? "Some of us actually want more people going to, and ultimately graduating from college" is what's being said.

Substantively it is claimed that "These trends threaten our future workforce and, ultimately, the U.S. economy.". They do no such thing. Those not going to college are doing best for themselves, given the facts of costs and benefits. There is no reason to think we know more about these individuals than they do. And, it's not "our" workforce. It's people making the best decisions for themselves. The economy is us.

[mahagonny]

The economy is us.

Having too many colleges for the number of people who want to attend should be solved by closing colleges until things are in balance.

[jimbogumbo]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

Well, it's descriptively better than most higher ed interest group pieces.

The analysis, or the rhetoric, is misleading. "We actually need more people going to, and ultimately graduating from, college." Who's this "we", and what does "need " mean? "Some of us actually want more people going to, and ultimately graduating from college" is what's being said.

Substantively it is claimed that "These trends threaten our future workforce and, ultimately, the U.S. economy.". They do no such thing. Those not going to college are doing best for themselves, given the facts of costs and benefits. There is no reason to think we know more about these individuals than they do. And, it's not "our" workforce. It's people making the best decisions for themselves. The economy is us.

I think the "we" is the basis of some of our disagreements in past threads. The "we" is society. I understand your points, but I think it is an entirely defensible position on my part (and Charlotte's) that "we" in society are better served by having "enough" college educated workers in the work force. I think there is a case (especially with AS degrees) that there soon won't be. If that leads to a change in licensing and educational requirements for those professions we'll see. I for one don't want less educated nurses, social support and law enforcement officers.

[Hibush]

I thought her analysis re AS degrees ROI was especially good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/10/25/declining-college-education-rate-economic-threat/

Well, it's descriptively better than most higher ed interest group pieces.

The analysis, or the rhetoric, is misleading. "We actually need more people going to, and ultimately graduating from, college." Who's this "we", and what does "need " mean? "Some of us actually want more people going to, and ultimately graduating from college" is what's being said.

Substantively it is claimed that "These trends threaten our future workforce and, ultimately, the U.S. economy.". They do no such thing. Those not going to college are doing best for themselves, given the facts of costs and benefits. There is no reason to think we know more about these individuals than they do. And, it's not "our" workforce. It's people making the best decisions for themselves. The economy is us.

I agree that editorial writers get overly hazy about defining "we" and "need". I often read this framing as "I wish everyone else would do this thing so I'd feel better." Then I don't care to read further.

[secundem_artem]

America being America, if "we" don't have enough high school graduates ready for the rigors of college, "we" will just bring in enough Indian and Chinese graduate students to meet "our" needs in filling such technical, medical, business, or engineering needs.  "We" will still have to graduate enough domestic students with the potential for law school since that seems less attractive to overseas students looking to move to the Land of the Screed and the Home of the Depraved.  Supporting a talented Indian grad student for 3-5 years is probably cheaper than supporting a domestic knucklehead for 12.

Although there may be some pulling back from the belief that college is an economic necessity in the 21st Century, I'd say the bigger problem is inadequate preparation in the high schools.  Getting a credential to teach K-12 is one of the easier paths to the middle class in the US.  Admission to a teacher's college in Canada, and much of Europe is highly competitive - akin to getting into med school.  K-12 teaching (especially given the generally poor salaries) does not attract the best and the brightest (go back and review the late, lamented comments of Polly on discussing the education students in her classes).  And when you add the hyper politicized K-12 environment where teachers of modest ability must answer to the whims of the various cranks, crackpots, dingbats, and fantasists on school boards - well no wonder we're in the mess we are.

It becomes easier to import our brains.  It's probably cheaper too.

[dismalist]

America being America, if "we" don't have enough high school graduates ready for the rigors of college, "we" will just bring in enough Indian and Chinese graduate students to meet "our" needs in filling such technical, medical, business, or engineering needs.  "We" will still have to graduate enough domestic students with the potential for law school since that seems less attractive to overseas students looking to move to the Land of the Screed and the Home of the Depraved.  Supporting a talented Indian grad student for 3-5 years is probably cheaper than supporting a domestic knucklehead for 12.

Although there may be some pulling back from the belief that college is an economic necessity in the 21st Century, I'd say the bigger problem is inadequate preparation in the high schools.  Getting a credential to teach K-12 is one of the easier paths to the middle class in the US.  Admission to a teacher's college in Canada, and much of Europe is highly competitive - akin to getting into med school.  K-12 teaching (especially given the generally poor salaries) does not attract the best and the brightest (go back and review the late, lamented comments of Polly on discussing the education students in her classes).  And when you add the hyper politicized K-12 environment where teachers of modest ability must answer to the whims of the various cranks, crackpots, dingbats, and fantasists on school boards - well no wonder we're in the mess we are.

It becomes easier to import our brains.  It's probably cheaper too.

There is no need for a deus ex machina, here immigration. Labor markets are like all other markets [starvation and obesity of the workers aside] -- if "we" don't have enough "PhD playground monitors", their wage will rise until they can pay off their loans, live like kings, and then "we" will have enough! There is no problem.

K-12 is a socialized industry. It is run to serve the employees, who vote, not the customers. I believe that is changing. Quality can only go up.

[jimbogumbo]

K-12 is a socialized industry. It is run to serve the employees, who vote, not the customers. I believe that is changing. Quality can only go up.

I completely disagree with this statement. It is a trope, and untrue outside a few large teacher organizations in the big cities. For decades all the surveys with parents indicate overwhelming satisfaction with their local schools while at the same time believing that K-12 education was going to the dogs nationally. It was, and remains alogical disconnect.

I admit might statement may be less applicable after the last six years.

[dismalist]

K-12 is a socialized industry. It is run to serve the employees, who vote, not the customers. I believe that is changing. Quality can only go up.

I completely disagree with this statement. It is a trope, and untrue outside a few large teacher organizations in the big cities. For decades all the surveys with parents indicate overwhelming satisfaction with their local schools while at the same time believing that K-12 education was going to the dogs nationally. It was, and remains alogical disconnect.

I admit might statement may be less applicable after the last six years.

I've also read that many or most parents were happy with K-12. For day-care, surely.

[I live next to a High School. Football sounds abound. My sister taught High School for many years. There's nothing there.]

I'm also quite sure that parents have come to like their K-12 less. I'm sure the Virginia governor's race was determined by that one problem at the margin. The individual States can take care of themselves. My major malfunction is inner cities. And it ain't money.

[jimbogumbo]

dismalest wrote "I've also read that many or most parents were happy with K-12. For day-care, surely."

Nope. Those surveys (over decades) describe their satisfaction  with the quality of their local schools. Similar results for non-parents.

Things certainly have changed with the pandemic. One reason that parents wanted their kids back in schools was the recognition of how hard it is to help your child learn, and an appreciation for what teachers actually do. Another is (duh) that there are serious limitations when scaling distance ed up to those who don't want to go that route. We've experienced those limitations in college for years. Many students are forced into that modality due to limitations on the number of open f2f sections, or those that fit into a working student's work schedule. It doesn't go well.