Voting Day in the United States

[dismalist]

The primary voters want the most extreme candidates, but the electorate does not.

That problem never arose in the smoke filled rooms in which candidates were chosen before the rampant primaries.

There is something to be said for elite control of candidate selection. No approach is perfect, of course, but this would be better for keeping populism at bay.

It's not elite control that's desirable. Rather, it's the incentives of the choosers of the candidates that matter. The bosses in the smoke filled rooms, of which there were few, and hence each benefit a lot from fielding a winner, tried to chose candidates that would win the general election. The primary voters, of which there are many, and don't get much of the benefits of fielding a winner, have the incentive to make themselves feel good without regard to the eventual outcome.

The smoke-filled-room mechanism was even sprinkled with a few State primaries in which a broader public got to exercise voice. This was informationally efficient in small States, where a newcomer could have a chance. Remember JFK's breakthrough came in the West Virginia primary! This was duly noted by the bosses.

As with many other things, the smoke-filled-room mechanism was abolished in 1968. Primaries in the large have a different effect than primaries in the small.

[kaysixteen]

Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

[Anon1787]

In all seriousness, Republicans have read the room all wrong. Trump won in 2016 because Clinton was a terrible candidate. Republican leadership misunderstood this and instead decided that actually Trump and Trumpism are very popular and people in swing states must want snarling fascists, culture warriors, and celebrity know-nothings to represent them. The electorate pushed back in 2018, 2020, and in 2022, robbing Rs of what should have been big wins in two of those years (showing last night was really bad, given fundamentals in Republicans' favor). Hopefully some Rs will see the light and start moving away from Trump, but he's not going to make it easy for them.

MAGAs are reliable voters. So... there's that.

That's a big part of the problem for the party. The primary voters want the most extreme candidates, but the electorate does not. Dems have some similar dynamics, but moderate wing of the party has done a relatively good job marginalizing the left.

Populism is a different sort of "extremism" than left-right "extremism". What makes populism extreme is its attack on institutions and norms that results in mob rule, which is democracy in its most extreme form. Of course the people who have insisted we must democratize our political institutions to an ever greater extent but then freak out when they don't like the results fail to see the connection.

[mahagonny]

Abortion is murder!

Except when Republican politicians do it, then it's nbd!

Anyone is free to try prosecuting Herschel Walker for murder under the current laws. If it doesn't work, who should they blame? Hypocrisy, anyone? OTOH, abortion is democratic (black) voter suppression. One might think they'd be interested in that.

ETA: Actually, if Walker had done as I suggested, he would have been able to reiterate that abortion is a big deal, the experience having brought him to his view of things today.
BTW, anyone remember the movie 'Alfie?' Michael Caine's character gets sick to his stomach upon seeing the fetus that looks like him. Then true to form, buries the memory. Strong stuff! Like, symbolically, he is destroying himself with his careless hedonism.
Regarding Trump, an interesting piece...https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/11/09/an_open_letter_to_donald_trump_148448.html

Trump must be frustrated now because he is the one who figured out how to slay the woke Goliath and he's not getting credit for it. (You don't engage with them, because there's no good faith conversation to be had, just entrapment.) Others like Kari Lake and Ron DeSantis have learned from him and may end up taking the lead.

Quote
Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

Google and ye shall find. I'm not going to play the back-and-forth 'your news source is fact check busted no yours is' game. Where did you get the basis for stating authoritatively that Herschel Walker is the most immoral candidate ever produced in American political life?

[Sun_Worshiper]

Abortion is murder!

Except when Republican politicians do it, then it's nbd!

Anyone is free to try prosecuting Herschel Walker for murder under the current laws. If it doesn't work, who should they blame? Hypocrisy, anyone? OTOH, abortion is democratic (black) voter suppression. One might think they'd be interested in that.

ETA: Actually, if Walker had done as I suggested, he would have been able to reiterate that abortion is a big deal, the experience having brought him to his view of things today.
BTW, anyone remember the movie 'Alfie?' Michael Caine's character gets sick to his stomach upon seeing the fetus that looks like him. Then true to form, buries the memory. Strong stuff! Like, symbolically, he is destroying himself with his careless hedonism.
Regarding Trump, an interesting piece...https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/11/09/an_open_letter_to_donald_trump_148448.html

Trump must be frustrated now because he is the one who figured out how to slay the woke Goliath and he's not getting credit for it. (You don't engage with them, because there's no good faith conversation to be had, just entrapment.) Others like Kari Lake and Ron DeSantis have learned from him and may end up taking the lead.

Quote
Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

Google and ye shall find. I'm not going to play the back-and-forth 'your news source is fact check busted no yours is' game. Where did you get the basis for stating authoritatively that Herschel Walker is the most immoral candidate ever produced in American political life?

The point about Walker is that he is a hypocrite with no principles. He is also a know-nothing who is clearly not even marginally qualified for the job. If conservatives were smart, they would take as a lesson from this election that candidate quality matters.

Mahag just throws out allegations against Walker and then tells you to look into them cause he's too busy posting incoherent rants on various forums to provide a link.

[mahagonny]

If someone's elected, they're  qualified. It's up to the electorate, not you. As I wrote, I think they could have run someone else. We'll see what happens.

Mahag just throws out allegations against Walker and then tells you to look into them cause he's too busy posting incoherent rants on various forums to provide a link.

Where? Show us. I would appreciate your refraining from posting lies about me.

Whether or not the ex-wife's foot was actually driven over by Senator's Tesla, or whether he merely tried to, is disputed. That's about it.

ETA: Why don't you Warnock supporters just go ahead and admit, proudly, that you agree with him that white people should despise their whiteness? Why have a messaging problem when you know what you believe? Take some credit for these uplifting ideas.

[Sun_Worshiper]

If someone's elected, they're  qualified. It's up to the electorate, not you. As I wrote, I think they could have run someone else. We'll see what happens.

Mahag just throws out allegations against Walker and then tells you to look into them cause he's too busy posting incoherent rants on various forums to provide a link.

Where? Show us. I would appreciate your refraining from posting lies about me.

Whether or not the ex-wife's foot was actually driven over by Senator's Tesla, or whether he merely tried to, is disputed. That's about it.

ETA: Why don't you Warnock supporters just go ahead and admit, proudly, that you agree with him that white people should despise their whiteness? Why have a messaging problem when you know what you believe? Take some credit for these uplifting ideas.

Lol at posting lies about you. You literally did this in the post I quoted:

Quote
Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

Google and ye shall find. I'm not going to play the back-and-forth 'your news source is fact check busted no yours is' game. Where did you get the basis for stating authoritatively that Herschel Walker is the most immoral candidate ever produced in American political life?

[Kron3007]

Abortion is murder!

Except when Republican politicians do it, then it's nbd!

Anyone is free to try prosecuting Herschel Walker for murder under the current laws. If it doesn't work, who should they blame? Hypocrisy, anyone? OTOH, abortion is democratic (black) voter suppression. One might think they'd be interested in that.

ETA: Actually, if Walker had done as I suggested, he would have been able to reiterate that abortion is a big deal, the experience having brought him to his view of things today.
BTW, anyone remember the movie 'Alfie?' Michael Caine's character gets sick to his stomach upon seeing the fetus that looks like him. Then true to form, buries the memory. Strong stuff! Like, symbolically, he is destroying himself with his careless hedonism.
Regarding Trump, an interesting piece...https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/11/09/an_open_letter_to_donald_trump_148448.html

Trump must be frustrated now because he is the one who figured out how to slay the woke Goliath and he's not getting credit for it. (You don't engage with them, because there's no good faith conversation to be had, just entrapment.) Others like Kari Lake and Ron DeSantis have learned from him and may end up taking the lead.

Quote
Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

Google and ye shall find. I'm not going to play the back-and-forth 'your news source is fact check busted no yours is' game. Where did you get the basis for stating authoritatively that Herschel Walker is the most immoral candidate ever produced in American political life?

Your take on Walker is quite interesting.  If he was so distraught about abortion after paying for it, why did he repeatedly do it?  This was not a situation where he did it and deeply regretted it, he only regrets that people learned about it.  He is not against abortion, he is one of its biggest supporters.

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

   

[ciao_yall]

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

Let's take it a step further. Walker is showing that politician's actual behavior and beliefs are irrelevant. People want someone who votes with their "team" and don't seem to care about the human being in the seat.

Suppose a respectable Warnock-type was the R, and a Walker-type was the D. How would you vote?

[ciao_yall]

If someone's elected, they're  qualified. It's up to the electorate, not you. As I wrote, I think they could have run someone else. We'll see what happens.

Mahag just throws out allegations against Walker and then tells you to look into them cause he's too busy posting incoherent rants on various forums to provide a link.

Where? Show us. I would appreciate your refraining from posting lies about me.

Whether or not the ex-wife's foot was actually driven over by Senator's Tesla, or whether he merely tried to, is disputed. That's about it.

ETA: Why don't you Warnock supporters just go ahead and admit, proudly, that you agree with him that white people should despise their whiteness? Why have a messaging problem when you know what you believe? Take some credit for these uplifting ideas.

Lol at posting lies about you. You literally did this in the post I quoted:

Quote
Mahag, where did you get this list of bad acts and history committed by Warnock?  Obviously it is not heard on MSNBC, but I am wondering what sources you would cite to demonstrate the veracity of this litany of awful?

Google and ye shall find. I'm not going to play the back-and-forth 'your news source is fact check busted no yours is' game. Where did you get the basis for stating authoritatively that Herschel Walker is the most immoral candidate ever produced in American political life?

I'm embarassed enoough to admit I Googled Warnock scandals, etc and didn't find anything. Some questions about legal spending as part of the use of his campaign funds, but it sounds like a gray area.

So does this mean that the Deep State has scrubbed all this information? Or that M's sources are too crazy for Google?

[Sun_Worshiper]

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

Let's take it a step further. Walker is showing that politician's actual behavior and beliefs are irrelevant. People want someone who votes with their "team" and don't seem to care about the human being in the seat.

Suppose a respectable Warnock-type was the R, and a Walker-type was the D. How would you vote?

I don't know about that. One lesson of the election has been that candidate quality matters. Rs probably would have done much better if they did not run a bunch of nuts. In the case of Georgia, it seems to me that a high quality and moderate Republican would have easily won in a midterm year, given high inflation and low presidential approval rating.

[apl68]

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

Let's take it a step further. Walker is showing that politician's actual behavior and beliefs are irrelevant. People want someone who votes with their "team" and don't seem to care about the human being in the seat.

Suppose a respectable Warnock-type was the R, and a Walker-type was the D. How would you vote?

I don't know about that. One lesson of the election has been that candidate quality matters. Rs probably would have done much better if they did not run a bunch of nuts. In the case of Georgia, it seems to me that a high quality and moderate Republican would have easily won in a midterm year, given high inflation and low presidential approval rating.

The Democrats should have received an absolute shellacking in these mid-terms, with their recent record, their own nuttiness in some quarters, and the general situation in the past two years.  One of the dispiriting things about the current state of national politics in the U.S. is that the Republicans have deteriorated to the point where they don't offer a credible alternative.  You find yourself wishing at times that they could both lose.  But that means that we're all losing here.

[lightning]

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

Let's take it a step further. Walker is showing that politician's actual behavior and beliefs are irrelevant. People want someone who votes with their "team" and don't seem to care about the human being in the seat.

Suppose a respectable Warnock-type was the R, and a Walker-type was the D. How would you vote?

People want a politician who validates them. So, whether or not the politician's behavior and beliefs are reprehensible or not is not as important as whether that politician's beliefs and behavior validate the voter.

[kaysixteen]

I never claimed Walker was the most immoral candidate ever.   That is too silly even to approach strawman.

As to googling Warnock scandals, if you google anything, you will likely get a wide mix of truth and lies.    It is basic media literacy 101 to tell students that they need to evaluate the quality of the sources of any claims that they get.    Why you do not seem to realize this, well...

[Kron3007]

His take on abortion really isn't the issue though.  The problem is that he is obviously just saying what he thinks will get him elected even though it has nothing to do with his moral compass or beliefs. You cant believe anything he says. 

This is the same with Trump.  He just says and does what he thinks will get him elected and keep him in power.

I know this is somewhat par for the course with politicians, but there are different degrees. 

Let's take it a step further. Walker is showing that politician's actual behavior and beliefs are irrelevant. People want someone who votes with their "team" and don't seem to care about the human being in the seat.

Suppose a respectable Warnock-type was the R, and a Walker-type was the D. How would you vote?

I don't know about that. One lesson of the election has been that candidate quality matters. Rs probably would have done much better if they did not run a bunch of nuts. In the case of Georgia, it seems to me that a high quality and moderate Republican would have easily won in a midterm year, given high inflation and low presidential approval rating.

The Democrats should have received an absolute shellacking in these mid-terms, with their recent record, their own nuttiness in some quarters, and the general situation in the past two years.  One of the dispiriting things about the current state of national politics in the U.S. is that the Republicans have deteriorated to the point where they don't offer a credible alternative.  You find yourself wishing at times that they could both lose.  But that means that we're all losing here.

Just curious what about their recent record is so abhorrent?  Not trying to deny anything, just curious.  Most of the ills facing the US are global in nature and not a result of decisions made in the last 2 years in the USA.  I am in Canada, and it is the same here, a segment of our population are blaming our PM for everything from inflation to supply chain issues that are happening down there too.  I dont think the PM of Canada, or even the president of the US, is the primary source of these challenges that have resulted from years of events.

As for both losing, this is where a multiparty system is much better.  We get to choose from the lesser of 4 or five evils instead of just 2!