griner, whelan... and the Merchant of Death

[kaysixteen]

I confess that for the second time in as many weeks, Biden has deeply disappointed me.  First, he sold out the rail unions, and now he is trading a convicted terrorist arms dealer for a drug-using (obviously she wasn't a drug *dealer*, but she clearly used the stuff, and knew that it was illegal in Russia, and obviously, as an entitled rich pro jock, thinks the rules do not apply to her) basketball player.    'Humanitarian' concerns are cited, but precious little humanitarian concerns are being shown for the past Third World (mostly African) victims of The Merchant of Death, let alone for any future such victims of his (anyone think he is just going to retire?).   And does anyone agree with me that if it absolutely positively had to be the case that we had to trade TMOD for Griner, that we should at least have insisted that Paul Whelan be released as well?

[Hegemony]

My friends who follow this kind of politics tell me that Bout is a has-been who is of no actual value to anybody; why Russia wants him is a mystery. As for Griner, it may well be that she, like many other Americans (most of whom are not "entitled rich pro jocks") was in possession of some medical cannabis; but I also do not find it impossible to believe that the Russians sometimes imprison people for manufactured offenses and political gain. They may have been heard to do that once or twice in the past. But Griner's sentence of nine and a half years, in a penal colony reliably reported to require 16-hour days of hard labor, is out of line even with Russia's brutal prison system.

[nebo113]

I confess that for the second time in as many weeks, Biden has deeply disappointed me.  First, he sold out the rail unions, and now he is trading a convicted terrorist arms dealer for a drug-using (obviously she wasn't a drug *dealer*, but she clearly used the stuff, and knew that it was illegal in Russia, and obviously, as an entitled rich pro jock, thinks the rules do not apply to her) basketball player.    'Humanitarian' concerns are cited, but precious little humanitarian concerns are being shown for the past Third World (mostly African) victims of The Merchant of Death, let alone for any future such victims of his (anyone think he is just going to retire?).   And does anyone agree with me that if it absolutely positively had to be the case that we had to trade TMOD for Griner, that we should at least have insisted that Paul Whelan be released as well?

Putin wouldn't trade Whalen for Bout.  Would you have him just leave Griner there?

[Sun_Worshiper]

I confess that for the second time in as many weeks, Biden has deeply disappointed me.  First, he sold out the rail unions, and now he is trading a convicted terrorist arms dealer for a drug-using (obviously she wasn't a drug *dealer*, but she clearly used the stuff, and knew that it was illegal in Russia, and obviously, as an entitled rich pro jock, thinks the rules do not apply to her) basketball player.    'Humanitarian' concerns are cited, but precious little humanitarian concerns are being shown for the past Third World (mostly African) victims of The Merchant of Death, let alone for any future such victims of his (anyone think he is just going to retire?).   And does anyone agree with me that if it absolutely positively had to be the case that we had to trade TMOD for Griner, that we should at least have insisted that Paul Whelan be released as well?

Putin wouldn't trade Whalen for Bout.  Would you have him just leave Griner there?

This is the bottom line and at the end of the day I think Biden did the right thing here. But it does set a troubling precedent when an authoritarian government can essentially kidnap an American citizen and trade them for a war criminal (not that this is the first time the US has made trades like this).

[Puget]

I confess that for the second time in as many weeks, Biden has deeply disappointed me.  First, he sold out the rail unions, and now he is trading a convicted terrorist arms dealer for a drug-using (obviously she wasn't a drug *dealer*, but she clearly used the stuff, and knew that it was illegal in Russia, and obviously, as an entitled rich pro jock, thinks the rules do not apply to her) basketball player.    'Humanitarian' concerns are cited, but precious little humanitarian concerns are being shown for the past Third World (mostly African) victims of The Merchant of Death, let alone for any future such victims of his (anyone think he is just going to retire?).   And does anyone agree with me that if it absolutely positively had to be the case that we had to trade TMOD for Griner, that we should at least have insisted that Paul Whelan be released as well?

Putin wouldn't trade Whalen for Bout.  Would you have him just leave Griner there?

Right, they clearly stated that they tried and that was simply not a trade Russia would make, but they are still working on his case. It's a pretty different case since he was charged with espionage (whether or not that is true).

Also apparently Bout only had 6 years left on his sentence, so it's not like he went scot free, more like early release.

I guess you could argue that the US should never make such exchanges, but we always have and as far as I know most other countries do too.

[Mobius]

No U.S. president was going to let rail workers strike, so I don't blame any president for getting involved. Prisoner exchanges are usually unpopular, because the authoritarian regime usually has the upper hand in holding Americans who get harsh sentences for minor crimes. 

I'm not going to lose too much sleep. Bout seemed to be good at forming personal relationships. I don't think he'll be back in the business in a significant role.

[kaysixteen]

Random points:

1) What evidence do you have to suggest Bout will not rapidly return to his business activities?
2) Bout's 25 year sentence, whilst the max for the crime for which he was actually able to be convicted, is a slap on the wrist for the overall acts of which he is guilty.  And most of his victims were Third Worlders in places like Africa.
3) His release is essentially giving license to other autocrats desirous of getting guys like Bout out of our slammers, to trump up extra charges against Americans to use as trade bait.
4) Griner is an entitled jock, who was making $1.5m to play pro ball in Russia, and whose agent must have made it absolutely clear to her that she in no wise was to take the dope there.   She did it anyhow.
5) Does anyone for a millisecond believe that had Griner been a white, heterosexual, male, non-rich jock, that he would have been traded to the Ivans for a war criminal?

[Wahoo Redux]

As I understand it, Griner had less than a gram of hashish oil in her luggage.  Not smart, but I don't think that deserves a decade in a Rooskie prison.  What does an ad hom about being a "rich jock" have to do with it? 

On the one hand, Biden saved an American citizen.  As POTUS, the health and safety of American citizens should be his primary concern.  Russia is a rogue nation as far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, this was probably a PR ploy that worked.  That's politics.

The rail workers' strike would have put hundreds of thousands of people out of work and crippled the nation.  Don't pretend that is not of national importance.  Now is time to loudly and publicly support our rail workers, not blame the prez for doing what he had to do.

[nebo113]

Random points:

1) What evidence do you have to suggest Bout will not rapidly return to his business activities?
2) Bout's 25 year sentence, whilst the max for the crime for which he was actually able to be convicted, is a slap on the wrist for the overall acts of which he is guilty.  And most of his victims were Third Worlders in places like Africa.
3) His release is essentially giving license to other autocrats desirous of getting guys like Bout out of our slammers, to trump up extra charges against Americans to use as trade bait.
4) Griner is an entitled jock, who was making $1.5m to play pro ball in Russia, and whose agent must have made it absolutely clear to her that she in no wise was to take the dope there.   She did it anyhow.
5) Does anyone for a millisecond believe that had Griner been a white, heterosexual, male, non-rich jock, that he would have been traded to the Ivans for a war criminal?

For someone who professes to be a person of deep Christian faith, your apparent desire to leave her in a brutal Russian penal colony seems to belie the compassion of your savior.

[Langue_doc]

Griner chose to go to Russia, despite a travel advisory, and hadn't bothered to comply with the drug laws of the host country. If she had been caught with drugs in certain countries such as Singapore, she would be facing a death sentence.

She sounds like some of the entitled students in the teaching threads who expect passing grades despite a combination of poor attendance, unfamiliarity with the course materials, and missed assignments.

[Ruralguy]

Maybe, but if this had been Aaron Judge sitting in a Russian prison or LeBron, they'd be out already.
i think Biden did the right thing. Other governments do similar trades all the time. its troubling, but its how you gwt your people back. Whether or not she made a dumb mistale is not really relevant. Is it a decade in a penal colony sort of mistake?

[nebo113]

Griner chose to go to Russia, despite a travel advisory, and hadn't bothered to comply with the drug laws of the host country. If she had been caught with drugs in certain countries such as Singapore, she would be facing a death sentence.

She sounds like some of the entitled students in the teaching threads who expect passing grades despite a combination of poor attendance, unfamiliarity with the course materials, and missed assignments.

All of that may be true (and the entitled white UVA dude who was nabbed in N. Korea) , but getting her back was the right thing to do. 

Moreover, Singapore doesn't arrest foreigners to use as political pawns.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Random points:

1) What evidence do you have to suggest Bout will not rapidly return to his business activities?
2) Bout's 25 year sentence, whilst the max for the crime for which he was actually able to be convicted, is a slap on the wrist for the overall acts of which he is guilty.  And most of his victims were Third Worlders in places like Africa.
3) His release is essentially giving license to other autocrats desirous of getting guys like Bout out of our slammers, to trump up extra charges against Americans to use as trade bait.
4) Griner is an entitled jock, who was making $1.5m to play pro ball in Russia, and whose agent must have made it absolutely clear to her that she in no wise was to take the dope there.   She did it anyhow.
5) Does anyone for a millisecond believe that had Griner been a white, heterosexual, male, non-rich jock, that he would have been traded to the Ivans for a war criminal?

Remember this guy: Bowe Bergdahl

[marshwiggle]

I believe she was there because she plays there in the off-season. Has she indicated she will never, ever go there again now, with or without her stash?

[Langue_doc]

Griner chose to go to Russia, despite a travel advisory, and hadn't bothered to comply with the drug laws of the host country. If she had been caught with drugs in certain countries such as Singapore, she would be facing a death sentence.

She sounds like some of the entitled students in the teaching threads who expect passing grades despite a combination of poor attendance, unfamiliarity with the course materials, and missed assignments.

All of that may be true (and the entitled white UVA dude who was nabbed in N. Korea) , but getting her back was the right thing to do. 

Moreover, Singapore doesn't arrest foreigners to use as political pawns.

My point is that ignoring the travel advisory and willingly traveling to Russia with drugs however minuscule, knowing full well their reputation on human rights, the official attitude to LGBT, and the drug laws, comes across as snowflakery at its worst.

I'm not into sports, but very much doubt that Aaron Judge would have ignored a travel advisory--his manager would certainly dissuaded him from going to Russia.