griner, whelan... and the Merchant of Death

[Sun_Worshiper]

Seems like your own biases and hangups make it hard for you to look at this objectively.

The first point that we should all agree on is that people shouldn't be sentenced to do hard labor in a Russian gulag because they smoke pot. From there, reasonable people can disagree as to whether the exchange was good policy.

What we think is irrelevant. What the laws are in a foreign country, especially an authoritarian one, is what matters. The stupid idiot who got in trouble for vandalism in North Korea was completely the author of his own fate. Most importantly, a sovereign state is able to do whatever the heck they want with someone within its borders, so anyone without enough brains to realize what that means shouldn't be allowed to travel on their own.

Nobody is saying it is smart to put yourself in such a position or that Griner showed good judgement. But when a US citizen is unjustly locked in a penal colony abroad for a trivial infraction, the US government has every right and responsibility to try to bring them home.

I make a big distinction between fake charges, (where a foreign government makes them up to get leverage), and evidence-based charges on illegal activity in that country, even if it's legal elsewhere. I especially get annoyed at people who do these things knowingly, counting on their passport to get them out. If you don't like the laws somewhere, don't go there or don't break them when you're there. The government does have a legitimate role in helping people when there are questions about the legality of the charges.

I agree that it is annoying. She made a dumb mistake and that the consequences are significant. But the dumb mistake of entering a foreign country with some pot should not result in someone spending a decade in a labor camp. When that someone is an American citizen, the US government should (imo) try to get them out.

That said, I doubt that she played this out in her mind in the way you suggest with the bolded.

What about when someone tries to smuggle drugs into (or out of) some country with harsher penalties? There are stories like this in the news every so often. Should government resources be spent on getting people out of jail in a foreign country when they knew they were doing something that is even illegal at home?

It depends on the circumstances. Did the person get a ridiculously long and harsh sentence in a labor camp for bringing some pot in for personal use? Is the country in question ruled by an authoritarian government which is in the midst of a proxy war with the US? Is the judicial system independent, such that the regime is prevented for arbitrarily punishing the person or treat them as a bargaining chip?

[kaysixteen]

No, reasonable people cannot agree to disagree as to whether it is reasonable to trade a knowing drug user for a war criminal, especially when all likelihood suggests that said war criminal will continue to victimize the world going forward.  Why is this difficult?   Not by any reasonable definition of 'reasonable'. it isn't.

[nebo113]

No, reasonable people cannot agree to disagree as to whether it is reasonable to trade a knowing drug user for a war criminal, especially when all likelihood suggests that said war criminal will continue to victimize the world going forward.  Why is this difficult?   Not by any reasonable definition of 'reasonable'. it isn't.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/15/us/brittney-griner-trial-russia-friday/index.html

Perhaps you might revisit the facts, and then practice of compassion, even for a black lesbian.


" In Russia, cannabis is illegal. An individual possessing less than 6 grams of cannabis or two grams of hash can be fined or jailed for up to 15 days. Possessing any more than that becomes a more serious criminal offense.

Ms Griner was accused of having less than a gram."

[Wahoo Redux]

Awright, I will say it: I hate drugs.   They suck.   Period and end of discussion.  Most of ye have probably not had the experience, at least not in recent years, of working a low-grade retail job in a drug-riddled decayed mill town, where a substantial percentage of the clientele are either folks who have ruined their own lives with drugs (yes, including whaccky tobaccky), or are family members caught in the netherworld of a loved one who has done this.  And these people are by-and-large poor, uneducated, casualties of the new economic America, not rich, entitled jocks whose very fame and popularity makes them role models, sadly, for people like the kids here in Rusty City.

And, of course, the Prince of Peace sends unrepentant homosexuals to Hell, as Paul, writing under the inspiration of that Prince's Spirit, makes clear enough, in Romans 1.  No one has died and authorized me to ignore this.

I am a recovering drug addict myself and lost a sister to meth.  I know well the ravages of mind-altering substances. 

In in your mind Griner's mistake of carrying a tiny amount of hashish oil is comparable to your experiences?

My extended Boomer family was ravaged by alcoholism, as is my wife's.  None were rich jocks.  My grandfather died in an alcoholic stupor.  They would all go off on the evils of drugs.  They looked at drugs as a sociological failure completely separated from their own overt addictions.  Drug addicts were to be looked down upon.  Wine, anyone?  Very ironic.


You know, kay, I know virtually nothing about psychology except those theories that relate to literary criticism, and I only have a functional grasp on history, but I do know what the great authors on American slavery (W.E.B. Dubois, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, Octavia Butler) all write about how slavery hurts not only the enslaved but also the slave owners.  Slavery destroys the owner through hate and power.  We are talking about Christians, you know, as sure of their theological bigotries as you are about yours.

I see you somehow as an analogy.

How does any of this make your life better?  You appear to be seething with resentment and rage, and your Prince of Peace is a brutal sociopath.

You've largely lost any "power" that the Christian community once might have had over the gay community, which leaves you with just your hate, which for some reason you come here to vent.

I would give you the same advice I gave Mahag----seek help.

[Anselm]

Russian TV talk show discusses the Griner story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l2IgY9QYNw

[Parasaurolophus]

Let's not start slagging Russians as "Rooskies", or gay people for their sexual orientation.

What Griner did (if she did, in fact, do it) was pretty stupid. But people do stupid things, often simply by mistake. It's also clear that she was a political prisoner, and unjustly imprisoned. For my part, I see no harm in one country doing what it can to repatriate those of its citizens imprisoned on political grounds. She was a low-value prisoner traded for another low-value prisoner. As I see it, everybody gets a symbolic victory with this exchange.

[Istiblennius]

A bit of a sidetrack, but I find it interesting too that no-one is discussing that many WNBA players work in other countries in large part due to the enormous misogyny inherent in American (and global) sports. They can't command the salaries the men's teams, even when, like with soccer, they far outperform the men.

Everything about this situation sucks, but I am glad to that President Biden and his National Security team were able to on balance find an opportunity to show compassion and bring home Brittany Griner. I have nothing in common with her (except for also making some bad choices and dumb mistakes on occasion), but she is still a fellow human and I'm glad she's back with her family.

[Wahoo Redux]

I'm sorry, but I intend to slag on the damn Russians.

[Mobius]

Griner should have taken Latin.

[marshwiggle]

A bit of a sidetrack, but I find it interesting too that no-one is discussing that many WNBA players work in other countries in large part due to the enormous misogyny inherent in American (and global) sports. They can't command the salaries the men's teams, even when, like with soccer, they far outperform the men.

Not to open a whole other can of worms, but the definition of "outperform" here is very much in question. Practially speaking, it's the audience size that determines profitability, and womens' team sports don't remotely match mens' in this regard. If they can get the paying fans, the money will follow.

[Hegemony]

"Outperform" in the sense that they are better athletes at their game. In other words, the fact that they're making a pittance compared to the male athletes is not through any lack of talent or achievement on their part.

[dismalist]

"Outperform" in the sense that they are better athletes at their game. In other words, the fact that they're making a pittance compared to the male athletes is not through any lack of talent or achievement on their part.

I knew that was coming! :-)

The market does not reward virtuosity or virtue. It rewards what people are willing to pay for. Bill Gates gets the cash, not Mother Theresa, and not female athletes.

[Parasaurolophus]

I'm sorry, but I intend to slag on the damn Russians.

Sure. But not by using derogatory terms to refer to them, yeah? (Compare: Pakistan does some very bad things, but I think we can agree that we shouldn't call Pakistanis 'Pakis'.)

[Sun_Worshiper]

Yes I have to agree with Marsh and Dismalist on this one. NBA players make a ton of money because their labor brings in a ton of revenue. WNBA players, not so much. I also do not agree that WNBA players are better athletes in their game than NBA players, but that's more subjective.

That said, it is true that WNBA players go abroad to make extra money in the off season and this is quite understandable given their pay (league average is $100k per year and average career span is 5-6 years).

[jimbogumbo]

Yes I have to agree with Marsh and Dismalist on this one. NBA players make a ton of money because their labor brings in a ton of revenue. WNBA players, not so much. I also do not agree that WNBA players are better athletes in their game than NBA players, but that's more subjective.

That said, it is true that WNBA players go abroad to make extra money in the off season and this is quite understandable given their pay (league average is $100k per year and average career span is 5-6 years).

And Russia was by far the best place to do so. Best salaries, best treatment. Until it wasn't.

Let's not kid ourselves. She MAY have stupidly had hash oil. She MAY have been set up. Either way, it is clear that Putin used her.

There is another American there (61 year old male) held on similar charges. The US has not, to date, declared him unjustly prisoned. He is also being held largely as a bartering chip.