Should the Justice Department indict Trump?

[ciao_yall]

Well, ah, Trump and Trump alone retains the right to waive this right to a jury trial and insist on a bench one.   IIRC, there would be nothing the prosecutors could do about that?

Interesting article in the New Yorker about the various possibilities.

[Caracal]

So... uh... Aileen Cannon will be the judge presiding over these indictments...

Let's let that sink in, shall we?

My impression from lawyers I've seen is that
 a. It's not even clear she's assigned permanently to the case-might just be the arraignment
b. Even if she is, the justice department will almost certainly get her removed if she doesn't remove herself and there's plenty of precedent for that if a judge has made previous decisions which could taint her credibility in the public sphere. Have no way of judging that, but I don't think it's something to spend much time worrying about.

Yeah, what I posted earlier was based on someone who seemed well credentialed, but what I've read since doesn't seem to back it up. I get the impression that some of the confusion is because these things are often worked out in informal ways where a judge initially assigned to a case might end up giving way to a judge who has more experience dealing with similar cases if the case is potentially complicated or high profile. I would also imagine that lawyers really don't want to question the competency or impartiality of judges except as a last resort in extreme cases. So, it's possible that the prosecutors expect that the case might be reassigned. It's a very opaque system though so really hard to know...

[Caracal]

Well, ah, Trump and Trump alone retains the right to waive this right to a jury trial and insist on a bench one.   IIRC, there would be nothing the prosecutors could do about that?

It seems like the federal rules are that the prosecution would have to agree to a bench trial as well.

[Wahoo Redux]

I voted that Trump should be prosecuted in the poll...but now I wish they weren't. 

I have no doubt that he is guilty, and I agree that no one is above the law, even the POTUS, but this is not good for the country.  The prosecution has put Trump back in the headlines----he is now THE headline----and given him a megaphone.  His followers are energized and outraged, and I fear what they will do. Trump is now a martyr. The "Biden is jailing a political rival" meme fits right in with the conspiracy-minded Republicans.  Plus, even through there are big differences between the two cases, Hillary's idiotic choice to put a server in her basement sure looks like a double-standard for those people not willing to actually look into the scenario.  I wonder at the expense of all this, and I wonder what will happen if he is found guilty; we would never put an ex-prez in prison.  So what do we have---house arrest?  And if Trump is acquitted?  Oh boy, what an agitprop that will be.

I think Trump deserves justice, the charges are warranted, but I'm just not sure that this whole prosecution is good for the U.S. of A. It seems like the costs outweigh the reward.

[lightning]

I voted that Trump should be prosecuted in the poll...but now I wish they weren't. 

I have no doubt that he is guilty, and I agree that no one is above the law, even the POTUS, but this is not good for the country.  The prosecution has put Trump back in the headlines----he is now THE headline----and given him a megaphone.  His followers are energized and outraged, and I fear what they will do. Trump is now a martyr. The "Biden is jailing a political rival" meme fits right in with the conspiracy-minded Republicans.  Plus, even through there are big differences between the two cases, Hillary's idiotic choice to put a server in her basement sure looks like a double-standard for those people not willing to actually look into the scenario.  I wonder at the expense of all this, and I wonder what will happen if he is found guilty; we would never put an ex-prez in prison.  So what do we have---house arrest?  And if Trump is acquitted?  Oh boy, what an agitprop that will be.

I think Trump deserves justice, the charges are warranted, but I'm just not sure that this whole prosecution is good for the U.S. of A. It seems like the costs outweigh the reward.

Certainly there will be repercussions, but letting Trump get away with it, will only embolden the MAGAs, Q, bigots, and all the other related idiots who were validated and who briefly tasted symbolic power for 4 years.

We are not dealing with reasonable people.

Let the probes, investigations, indictments, prosecutions, and civil suits, run their course, and pile on. Make them lose over and over and over again. There's no turning back, now. I'm looking forward next to Georgia. Let them be angry. If they really want a civil war, again, let them be invited to start one (they won't--they're all talk).

[Sun_Worshiper]

Another indictment appears to be on the way for Trump:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/live-blog/rcna92693

And, in the meantime, 16 fake electors charged in Michigan:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/politics/michigan-fake-electors-bios/index.html

[Sun_Worshiper]

And there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.

[Parasaurolophus]

Finally. Well done.

[Wahoo Redux]

And there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.

All this has put the big evil Cheetos back in the headlines and given his mob a focal point for their conspiracy theories.

Not that he shouldn't be prosecuted...but it does empower Drumpf to a degree...

[lightning]

And there it is:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-2020-election-probe-08-01-23/index.html

He deserves it for the irreparable damage that he did to American democracy, although I'm far from convinced that it is a good idea in practice.

All this has put the big evil Cheetos back in the headlines and given his mob a focal point for their conspiracy theories.

Not that he shouldn't be prosecuted...but it does empower Drumpf to a degree...

Empowered only because everyone was dragging their feet. Instead of just being a high-profile criminal case, it is now that AND it's now also an election focal point.

Trump should have been behind bars two years ago, like the QAnon Shaman and all the other goons, and then everyone would have forgotten about him and the country could have moved on.

Now, it's an election issue, which, beginning on November 5, 2024 through January 20, 2025, could cause yet more duress, more goons, more conspiracies, more guns stored in nearby hotel rooms, more local election workers getting harassed & threatened, more election officers either pulling shenanigans or getting threatened, more state and local politicians pulling shenanigans or getting harassed, more strains on law enforcement, more Confederate flags on pickup trucks driving through town, more court dockets clogged up, and more deterioration of the confidence of American society remaining stable.

The delay to indict was and is insane.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Eh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.

[Wahoo Redux]

Eh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.

Actually, his Republican base is slowly eroding.  Polls indicate The Orange Ogre only has 60% Republican approval right now----we don't need all the conservatives, we just need enough not to vote to keep Biden in office.  COVID may have had an effect on the voter base as well.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Eh I don't think it helps Trump politically, but it does make it harder for the country to move on.

But the more I read and am reminded of the treasonous behavior that Trump and his co-conspirators engaged in, the more I'm seeing the merits of moving forward with the indictment. I'm still not convinced it is a good idea, but more like 50/50 now.

Actually, his Republican base is slowly eroding.  Polls indicate The Orange Ogre only has 60% Republican approval right now----we don't need all the conservatives, we just need enough not to vote to keep Biden in office.  COVID may have had an effect on the voter base as well.

As I've said before, I don't think this helps Trump politically. He has never been a strong general election candidate and this will just weaken him further in that regard in 2024. The primary is different, of course, but even there I don't think that being indicted for crimes against democracy will improve his standing.

My concerns are more about the slippery slope of prosecuting former national executives and fostering still greater distrust of institutions and polarization. Not to mention that odds are on him evading significant punishment.

[Wahoo Redux]

The big effects on culture are what I worry about.  That, and some of the Trump cult will be incited to more violence.

Trump's most significant effect might be keeping DeSantis out of the White House.

[Hegemony]

We may have short-term big effects on culture, but the longer-term effect of not following the law would be a lot more damaging. Just letting someone get away with trying to subvert democracy — the very basis of the country, the thing that underlies all the other things — would basically undermine our system itself. You can't be prosecuted if you make too big a fuss? You can't be prosecuted if people get too upset about it? You can't be prosecuted if a lot of your followers are ardent? There should be only one bar to prosecution: the evidence is not strong enough to support it. Any other bar makes us a country where the rule of law no longer holds sway. Well, we'll have some upheaval. It's not the first time the country has seen upheaval in trying to hold to our principles. If we're going to be chickenshit about it, we head into the kind of country we do not want.