Hamline U. Lecturer Showed a Painting of the Prophet Muhammad. She Lost Her Job

[Wahoo Redux]

The Daily
(Indeed, if you don't want your traditions, beliefs, or views challenged, then don't come to a university, at least not to study anything in the humanities or the social sciences.) Miller's view, it seems, is that academic freedom really only means as much freedom as your most sensitive students can stand, an irresponsible position that puts the university, the classroom, and the careers of scholars in the hands of students who are inexperienced in the subject matter, new to academic life, and, often, still in the throes of adolescence.

This is something I find most fascinating. It is typically humanities faculty arguing about the importance of a broad education for expanding peoples' minds and viewpoints, etc. But, it is also disproportionately humanities faculty engaging in and supporting cancel culture.

You can't have it both ways.

Marshy, I challenge you a lot because you make these sorts of superficial blanket statements and you usually blanket the liberal arts and/or liberals without any sort of follow through.  I know you see the world this way.

I too am frustrated by ideologues, but from what I have seen and posted, it is just as often conservative religious groups which foster cancel culture and at the same time demand religious exceptions.  This thread is just such an example.  The thread on libraries is just such an example.  Much of the Republican agenda is just such an example.

[MarathonRunner]

But what is clear if you read the student's comments is that she was not expecting to see that image and felt that she was forced to look at it. I absolutely agree that the onus is on her to read the syllabus and listen to warnings that were given. I absolutely agree that the professor did what everything she should have done to mitigate the situation, and we can and should have conversations about image of the Prophet Muhammad in university classroom. I don't think she should have lost her job and I think Hamline have handled it all wrong.
But, I don't think saying that people who can't participate in class because of their religion have to leave is the answer. How did the Jehovah's Witnesses feel when they had to leave class because of the singing of the national anthem? Did they feel like they belonged in that classroom? And I think this is different than medical school, which is a graduate degree that people choose to pursue. I teach images of the Prophet in upper-level classes, so I'm not arguing against them per se. I'm saying that an online gen ed class that is probably required for art and history students is a bad plan for multiple reasons. If I was her chair, I wouldn't fire her, but we would have a serious discussion about knowing your audience, thinking about the ways that images can cause harm, and realizing that students don't read the syllabus or remember most of what we say.

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

[jimbogumbo]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Not in the USA. It is most definitely a graduate degree for doctors (medical, dental, vision).

[Parasaurolophus]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Sort of. You typically need an undergraduate degree to study medicine in Canada, although there are some exceptions (e.g. CEGEP in Québec). It is considered a bachelor's-level qualification, however.

[dismalist]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Sort of. You typically need an undergraduate degree to study medicine in Canada, although there are some exceptions (e.g. CEGEP in Québec). It is considered a bachelor's-level qualification, however.

That's like the whole British Empire and Europe and Japan -- skip college, go to medical school. In the US of A, the anomaly, the American Medical Association makes sure that doctors are scarce, so they have high income. So, an extra four years! The AMA killed midwifery in the US. They do this with the connivance of government -- they couldn't otherwise -- through the Liaison Committee on Medical Education. Talk about strong unions ... .

[Kron3007]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Sort of. You typically need an undergraduate degree to study medicine in Canada, although there are some exceptions (e.g. CEGEP in Québec). It is considered a bachelor's-level qualification, however.

You don't technically need a BSc to go to med school in Canada.  In practice there are very few that make it into grad school before completing the BSc, but as far as I know it is not actually a requirement.

[marshwiggle]

The Daily
(Indeed, if you don't want your traditions, beliefs, or views challenged, then don't come to a university, at least not to study anything in the humanities or the social sciences.) Miller's view, it seems, is that academic freedom really only means as much freedom as your most sensitive students can stand, an irresponsible position that puts the university, the classroom, and the careers of scholars in the hands of students who are inexperienced in the subject matter, new to academic life, and, often, still in the throes of adolescence.

This is something I find most fascinating. It is typically humanities faculty arguing about the importance of a broad education for expanding peoples' minds and viewpoints, etc. But, it is also disproportionately humanities faculty engaging in and supporting cancel culture.

You can't have it both ways.

Marshy, I challenge you a lot because you make these sorts of superficial blanket statements and you usually blanket the liberal arts and/or liberals without any sort of follow through.  I know you see the world this way.

I too am frustrated by ideologues, but from what I have seen and posted, it is just as often conservative religious groups which foster cancel culture and at the same time demand religious exceptions.  This thread is just such an example.  The thread on libraries is just such an example.  Much of the Republican agenda is just such an example.

When have I argued for conservative religious exceptions?

My goal is to make universal rules that are consistently applied. It's the extremists on both ends of the political spectrum who tend to make draconian rules and then wind up violating them when it suits them.

The religious sensibilities of *conservative Christians and conservative Muslims deserve similar respect, but also must not be allowed to undermine the educational goals of higher education.

(* and any other religious group)

[Wahoo Redux]

When have I argued for conservative religious exceptions?

You have not.  But many religious people, most particularly fundamentalists, feel they have the right to limit the rights of other people based upon their own religious and moral precepts (see any of these threads) but are deeply offended when they feel their own religious convictions are being limited (see any of these threads).  For many, "religious freedom" means the ability to control other people's lifestyles and choices.

My goal is to make universal rules that are consistently applied. It's the extremists on both ends of the political spectrum who tend to make draconian rules and then wind up violating them when it suits them.

Okay.  I'm not sure you always sound that way when you post, but fine by me.

The religious sensibilities of *conservative Christians and conservative Muslims deserve similar respect, but also must not be allowed to undermine the educational goals of higher education.

Fine.  But, as you said, "you cannot have it both ways."

Do not expect the rest of us to follow someone else's religious convictions.  That is one of the big problems with the Hamline controversy.  That is one of the big problems with opposing drag queens in the library.

[MarathonRunner]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Not in the USA. It is most definitely a graduate degree for doctors (medical, dental, vision).

Not according to the medical schools I'm familiar with in the US. It's considered a bachelor's degree, not a graduate degree. Maybe it varies by state. It is definitely a bachelor's degree in Canada, despite the fact that some witless have another bachelor's, master's, or even a PhD before being admitted.

[jimbogumbo]

In both Canada and the USA, medicine is an undergraduate degree, not a graduate degree.

Not in the USA. It is most definitely a graduate degree for doctors (medical, dental, vision).

This is copied from the Indiana University School of Medicine website:

"Yes, Medical school matriculants must have been awarded a Bachelor's degree unless applying and accepted through an IU School of Medicine program which has waived the requirement. In order to apply, applicants must have a minimum of 90 credit hours from a U.S. or Canadian institution and permanent resident visa".

My understanding having lived in the US for 70 years is that this is true across all 50 states.


Not according to the medical schools I'm familiar with in the US. It's considered a bachelor's degree, not a graduate degree. Maybe it varies by state. It is definitely a bachelor's degree in Canada, despite the fact that some witless have another bachelor's, master's, or even a PhD before being admitted.

[Mobius]

I hope this leads to better opportunities for the adjunct.

[Wahoo Redux]

I hope this leads to better opportunities for the adjunct.

It probably won't.  That's part of the problem.

[Wahoo Redux]

NBC News: Minnesota university under fire for professor's dismissal over showing images of Prophet Muhammad

[A] statement released Friday by Board of Trustees Chair Ellen Watters gave more credence to the school's critics, and promised that trustees "are listening and we are learning."

"The Hamline University Board of Trustees is actively involved in reviewing the University's policies and responses to recent student concerns and subsequent faculty concerns about academic freedom," Watters wrote. "Upholding academic freedom and fostering an inclusive, respectful learning environment for our students are both required to fulfill our Mission."

The statement did not provide more detail on the board's process and a school spokesman did not immediately respond to messages seeking information.

[marshwiggle]

[A] statement released Friday by Board of Trustees Chair Ellen Watters gave more credence to the school's critics, and promised that trustees "are listening and we are learning."

"The Hamline University Board of Trustees is actively involved in reviewing the University's policies and responses to recent student concerns and subsequent faculty concerns about academic freedom," Watters wrote. "Upholding academic freedom and fostering an inclusive, respectful learning environment for our students are both required to fulfill our Mission."

Fascinating to see how they try to square that circle. (Well, it's easy if they acknowledge that "inclusive" doesn't mean "everyone gets exactly what they want" and "respectful" doesn't mean "grovelling".)

[Wahoo Redux]

NY Time: After Lecturer Sues, Hamline University Walks Back Its 'Islamophobic' Comments

Hamline University officials made an about-face on Tuesday in its treatment of a lecturer who showed an image of the Prophet Muhammad in an art history class, walking back one of their most controversial statements — that showing the image was Islamophobic. They also said that respect for Muslim students should not have superseded academic freedom.

University officials changed their stance after the lecturer, who lost her teaching job, sued the small Minnesota school for religious discrimination and defamation.

Well, there ya go.