Tipping and tipping norms

[dismalist]

Evil because it creates a sense of subservience and comes from feudalism. In a civilized society everybody would be paid decently and tipping would be insulting.

Since no-one has raised this issue yet, I will.

Part of the argument for tipping is that it fits in places where quality of service can vary, so it promotes top-notch service. (If all wait staff got paid the same, the slackers would get as much as the hard workers without it.) By that logic, tipping could apply to all kinds of things, including professional services.

Regarding the "living wage" argument, it's out of whack in high end establishments. For Valentine's Day, my SO and I were at a nice place for about 1.5 hours. Our server had several tables, which would have all made about the same demands. (For the occasion, there was a prix fixe menu.) Our bill of about $200 Cdn would mean a tip of $30 (at 15%) for just our table. If our server handled 4 or 5 tables in that time (meaning about 20 minutes per table, which is probably about right), that means that 1 1/2 hours would generate $120 in tips alone, or a rate of $80 per hour. That's a pretty darn good "living wage".

(FWIW, I typically tip about 15%.)

It's truly fascinating. Google 'tipping" or "origins of tipping" and the earliest one comes up with is 17th century English pubs. That's clearly for rewarding quality: It is so easy to shirk in delivering food -- no one will ever know except the customer! So, tipping is an efficient way of monitoring.

Other stories are about lord-serf relationships. But that, too, is about rewarding quality, for, the serfs, owing some labor days on the lord's land in return for their use rights of the land, had plenty of opportunity to shirk. Otherwise, if this is a power relationship, why tip at all?

Then it was seen in mid-19th century Europe, but only in those activities in which only the customer can monitor, such as inns, and brought back to the States. It was then said, after the Civil War, that tipping was racist on account freedmen were paid by tipping -- but, yes, only in activities that require and are amenable to monitoring by the customer!

There is one important point neglected in works about tipping: Before the use of credit cards, the size of tips given in cash could be safely hidden from taxation. Thus, employer and employee were getting a government subsidy through the tax code. This is more risky with tips on credit cards.

The fundamental economic points are two: quality is higher with tipping, and [ii] the average wage is not determined by how much you tip. How much one tips on average only determines which part of the check for the employee's wage is signed by the employer and which part is signed by the customer.

The convention of tipping doesn't matter for the average wage. It does matter at the edge for quality.

[Anselm]

  I've worked for tips and have no memory of giving anyone better service based on tips.  It is outdated and needs to go away.   I have been to one restaurant where everyone is charged 18% service charge regardless of how many people are at the table.   I would like to see more of that along with a higher hourly wage.   I tip for the same services that were getting tipped 30 years ago and I consider myself  generous, especially at lunch where most people leave the same one dollar that they gave decades ago.   

[kaysixteen]

Keeping tips for good service of course means those patrons unable to afford such bribes will end up with sh*tty service, if tip-payers are nearby.

One question for anyone who may know-- how exactly did the rest of the world get rid of tipping, which I guess used to occur elsewhere, at least in Britain?

[marshwiggle]

Keeping tips for good service of course means those patrons unable to afford such bribes will end up with sh*tty service, if tip-payers are nearby.

Since tips are only given after the service, this scenario requires speculation on the part of the server as to which patrons might tip more.  (And I've heard lots of stories about rich people being cheap, so it's not an easy guess.)

[AJ_Katz]

My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel.  She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:

10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used

The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable.  I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:

"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees."  https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175

[Caracal]

My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel.  She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:

10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used

The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable.  I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:

"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees."  https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175

Mostly I tip a little more if I think we are annoying (for example, when I've gone out to a meal with several young kids) but honestly I don't really change my tip much based on service. If the food is slow, or the server vanishes, I usually assume that's because they are short staffed and I don't want to punish someone for something out of their control. Besides the idea of evaluating the job performance of people in a place I don't work just makes me feel sort of icky. It's a little like teaching evals, honestly. Yes, it does take me a while to get grades back, that's because I have a lot of students, no TAs and unlike some of my colleagues, am not willing to just give scantron tests which aren't really an appropriate method of evaluation in my discipline.

[Volhiker78]

10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used

I haven't noticed a huge change in who deserves a tip but I have noticed that the above rule of thumb that I also learned 40 years ago has shifted upwards by about 5%.  So the standard at a sit down restaurant is 20%.

[lightning]

My mom earned her associate's in hotel / motel.  She taught me how to tip and I use the same criteria today:

10% – less than expected service -- also standard for buffet service
15% – good service -- this is standard and used most
20% – outstanding service -- rarely used

The rest of these games that are being played with tips are laughable.  I agree with the quote at the end of one of those article where they said the following:

"If you work for a company, it's that company's job to pay you for doing work for them," said Mike Janavey, a footwear and clothing designer who lives in New York City. "They're not supposed to be juicing consumers that are already spending money there to pay their employees."  https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tipping-control-consumers-96609175

Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer). People often note that tipping puts financial burden on customers and off of employers, but it also creates a burden in terms of figuring out whether to tip and how much to tip, which is increasingly convoluted with the proliferation of tipping requests/suggestions built into payment systems for a variety of services.

Putting that aside, I generally do not tip at coffee shops and I don't like when the payment platform suggests that I leave a tip in view of other customers and the cashier. My orders are simple and I watch the barista - who is already getting paid the standard minimum wage or more -  complete them in mere seconds. The quality of service is often so-so, with cashiers staring at their phones, seeming annoyed to be there, or being short with customers.

I do tip at full service restaurants and bars, where the workers make ~$2.50 per hours without tips. And I try to be fairly generous - 20% unless there was some significant problem, which is rare. I also typically tip valets and hotel maids, although I don't always carry cash. A grey area for me are situations where I order at the counter and am unsure what role the staff will be playing until after I pay and am prompted to leave a tip. Do they bring the food out to me? Bus my table? Refill my water?

So in general I'm opposed to the new tipping norms and I don't typically abide by them. Is this petty of me? Maybe so. I am very comfortable financially and so the extra money does not put me out in the slightest. I also worked at plenty of customer service jobs in high school and college, so I am aware that the pay is low, the work conditions lousy, and the customers often obnoxious. Maybe I should just shell out the extra dollar...

[Juvenal]

I'll do 20% if the service has been nominally OK; don't be a jerk.  Anything beyond that, well, it edges into martini time.

20% is so easy!  Take ten percent of the bill (forget the tax): move the decimal then double.  Easy-peasy.  In martini-land, I can't say I've emptied the wallet (would not want to disturb the mice), but reviewing the generosity the next day... Well, I did get a toothpick out of it.

[AJ_Katz]

Your mother worked for hotels? I want to know how much to actually tip the person that cleans the room after check out. I have never left even 10% of the rate of the room.

Yes, but her education was in all things customer service related and what she was referring to in the percentages for tips was in restaurants.  I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.

[AJ_Katz]

I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).

ME TOO!!  I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service.  When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder.   I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected. 

[quasihumanist]

I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).

ME TOO!!  I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service.  When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder.   I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected.

What we can at least do is to have what would be a normal tip built into the cost, so that the tip for normal service is 0%, and you might tip 5% for very good service (and for bad service, you complain and eventually the server gets fired).

Service is fine in the no tipping countries I've visited, even the no tipping and it's very hard to fire anyone for anything countries.

[Cheerful]

I've never heard of tipping someone for cleaning a room at a hotel.

My parents taught me to always leave a tip for the people who clean hotel rooms. It can be a nasty, low paying job.  If they are cleaning the room daily, leave a tip on counter in room each day.

[dismalist]

I would rather live in a country/world where tipping was not part of the deal and instead employers just paid more (and, if necessary, charged me more as a customer).

ME TOO!!  I guess the problem is how an employer ensures good customer service.  When there is "skin in the game" a worker is hypothetically more likely to try harder.   I don't know if that logic holds true though and wonder what services are like in countries where tipping is not expected.

What we can at least do is to have what would be a normal tip built into the cost, so that the tip for normal service is 0%, and you might tip 5% for very good service (and for bad service, you complain and eventually the server gets fired).

Service is fine in the no tipping countries I've visited, even the no tipping and it's very hard to fire anyone for anything countries.

Of course it is: We are seeing survivors! [The problem is called "survivorship bias".] Instead of individual employees paid according to their productivity, we have firms paid according to their productivity. Instead of shirkers being financially penalized, hire too many shirkers, and the whole firm is dead meat.

Without tipping, employers have to figure out their own second best weed out strategy. [IQ tests anyone?] My guess is that tipping is the better way to do it in activities that only the customer can evaluate. And yes, some customers can free ride. But I also guess the cost is lower to productive employees than, say, IQ tests or whatnot. If I were wrong, tipping would disappear.

Tipping is a non-problem.