Issue with the PhD student

[Puget]

Have you talked to your DGS and chair? At least in my university, you can't just unilaterally decide to kick a grad student out of your lab, there is a whole process. Either someone else has to agree to take them, or if there are serious problems that would warrant them being kicked out of the program all together, they have to have a warning letter with an improvement plan and a meaningful chance to improve before that happens. Nothing you've said here suggests that the student should be kicked out of the program, so unless another lab is willing and able to take them on, and that's mutually agreeable to the student, you probably need to work with them on improvement rather than just throwing them out.

[Caracal]

In terms of the actual communication, I would think that you should really only tell your other students information relevant to them. Anything else is a potential FERPA violation and wouldn't be appropriate anyway. If this student is working cooperatively with other students in a lab and they aren't going to be doing that any longer, just say that in the context of reassigning duties or whatever without offering any other information. If it has no direct effect on the other students, I don't think you should write them at all. If somebody asked, you could probably say something that just acknowledges that he's not your advisee anymore and leave it at that.

The truth is that if this grad program is anything like mine, everyone will know that you dropped him as your advisee almost immediately and various gossip about the details will be circulating around. You can't control all of that, but you should assume your other advisees probably know about some of your unhappiness with this student and have opinions about it. How they react if you drop him as an advisee will really depend on whether you have clearly communicated your expectations and laid out consequences if those expectations aren't met. What you don't want your advisees to think is that you just sprung this on this student and it's part of a pattern of mercurial advising. That might worry them even if they share your opinion of the student. So, I think the most important thing is to make sure you've been clear with this student about what you expect and the consequences if they don't meet those expectations.

[sambaprof]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

[Puget]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

[bio-nonymous]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

[onthefringe]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

All of this.

As a grad studies committee chair I always told students they need to find a mentor who will help the student develop into the scientist the student wants to be, and that this is most likely to happen if students and mentors are open about their goals and expectations. And "this is not a good fit" is not necessarily anything negative about the student or the mentor, but instead is frequently a mismatch of goals and expectations.

As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.

[Puget]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

All of this.

As a grad studies committee chair I always told students they need to find a mentor who will help the student develop into the scientist the student wants to be, and that this is most likely to happen if students and mentors are open about their goals and expectations. And "this is not a good fit" is not necessarily anything negative about the student or the mentor, but instead is frequently a mismatch of goals and expectations.

As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.

Yes exactly!

Illustrative story: Yesterday I had the privilege of hooding my PhD student who finished last summer (we only have one commencement ceremony a year so she had to wait for that). This is a student who for about her first three years really struggled with writing in particular, and productivity some overall. Her lab mates were far more successful in submitting and publishing papers than her. We both occasionally despaired. But! With a lot of coaching and discussions together, she eventually figured out what worked for her in terms of writing process and productivity. She put together a super ambitious dissertation proposal and then executed it beautifully, despite the pandemic throwing some major wrenches in the research process. There was another bleak period at the very end where she was way behind finishing writing up and I was pulling late nights getting her feedback, but she finished in time, gave a masterful defense, and graduated. At that point, she thought she wanted a non-academic but research focused position. She spent about 6 months searching for one to no avail. Then a long-term research scientist position came open in another school at our university, she got it, and it turns out to be the perfect fit for her. We are both so happy and proud of what she's achieved!

tldr version: Sometimes "problem" PhD students are just late bloomers who need some time and support to find their groove. If they eventually achieve *their* goals, then that's all that matters.

[fizzycist]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

I struggle with this, but my current thinking is: Expectations need to be set early on and then met by the student. There can be a little compromise towards the end, but ultimately the PhD needs to mean something. The student cannot decide what it takes and when they graduate, it must be the dissertation committee. And that committee needs to apply some sort of quality control, regardless of how long the student has been around or how good their job they got lined up is.

But as I said I struggle with this, because there also needs to be some flexibility, compromise, and introspection in the face of stubborn tendencies. I just worry: if taken to an extreme, we end up running a paper mill + a little free training for industry. I don't think we should give up on setting a bar for generating and disseminating new knowledge.

[Puget]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

I struggle with this, but my current thinking is: Expectations need to be set early on and then met by the student. There can be a little compromise towards the end, but ultimately the PhD needs to mean something. The student cannot decide what it takes and when they graduate, it must be the dissertation committee. And that committee needs to apply some sort of quality control, regardless of how long the student has been around or how good their job they got lined up is.

But as I said I struggle with this, because there also needs to be some flexibility, compromise, and introspection in the face of stubborn tendencies. I just worry: if taken to an extreme, we end up running a paper mill + a little free training for industry. I don't think we should give up on setting a bar for generating and disseminating new knowledge.

I agree there need to be standards, and I think I and my department do have pretty tough standards (you can ask my students about the number of drafts we do!). BUT, to me the key point is the standard should NOT be "good enough to get a faculty job" if that is not the goal of the student. Rather to me, the bar is (1) the studies are of publishable quality (doesn't have to actually be published necessarily, though that's usually the goal, and doesn't have to be a top journal), (2) based on their work, I could whole-heartedly recommend them for the jobs *they* want to apply for, not for *my* job.

[sambaprof]

Thank you all for providing your perspectives.

I have reflected more on it and I believe it is not wise for me to drop him from the team.  While there are some issues, I am observing good improvement in student's research skills and hard work compared to couple of years back. I have decided to be patient and put the ego and petty personnel issues in the backburner and work with the student and get him graduate successfully... Time and again, the collective wisdom of this fora (and chronicle before) has guided greatly over last decade or so.

Good, this is almost always the right choice!

I think one of the most important things I've learned as a mentor is that my students are not me-- they have different skill sets, ways of working and goals. Most grad students do not go on to be PIs, so PIs are not representative of grad students, and that's fine. My job is to help them grow their skill sets, find ways of working that are best for them, and achieve their own goals, not to try to turn them into me. And although I care about them, as people and scholars, it is important to maintain a healthy professional relationship and not take things personally.

Darn good advice Puget--words to live by. I just went through some graduating student issues myself (thesis wasn't as "well done" as I thought it should have been, I felt they didn't put in enough effort either...). I just had to let it go because, as you say, they are not me and are not even interested at all in going the PI route. They have a degree in hand now, a job to go to and are very happy--and that makes me happy!

As long as I was clear about my expectations for a student before they joined the lab I feel committed to keeping them on the team and getting them through the degree as long as they are meeting those expectations, even if they aren't prioritizing other things the way I would.

Thanks for sharing your perspectives.... What are the typical expectations you have for 1) a PhD student 2 ) a MS student...