AP News: "Jaded With Education"

[Wahoo Redux]

This one covers some familiar materials but also focuses on the effect of the pandemic on young people's attitudes toward college.

[marshwiggle]

This one covers some familiar materials but also focuses on the effect of the pandemic on young people's attitudes toward college.

Corrected URL:
Jaded with education, more Americans are skipping college

[FishProf]

I had three "instant" responses to this article.

1) It is conflating the student debt issue with the pandemic issue.  Both matter, but they aren't the same thing.

2) Students who opt-out of college b/c they think it has no value and they will be better off than their college-attending peers will find out if they are right.  It is a gamble, but it is also their call.  (I feel like I'm channeling Dismalist, here).

3) The choice to do trades (as the last student did) has always been there, but now more HS graduates are considering that path.  Given the many tales of the unfocused, unmotivated stories we post and read here, that may be better for Higher Ed in the longish run, as average student quality (in terms of motivation, at least) should rise.

I am ready to be disabused of any of this take-aways. however.

[marshwiggle]

3) The choice to do trades (as the last student did) has always been there, but now more HS graduates are considering that path.  Given the many tales of the unfocused, unmotivated stories we post and read here, that may be better for Higher Ed in the longish run, as average student quality (in terms of motivation, at least) should rise.

Yes, I think this is kind of like the way that the pandemic has raised the bar for in-person work and teaching requirements. As long as the requirement for being in-person wasn't in question, all kinds of really useless things could be done without question. Now that people realize that a lot of effective work can be done remotely, there needs to be justification for in-person requirements. Similarly, if high school students don't automatically see a degree as "required", then it will mean that it will be more of a conscious decision rather than just following the herd. If more of the students choosing to go to university know why they're doing it, it will be much more worth their while.

[kaysixteen]

I just talked with a young man at Wallyworld last night, a cashier there.   He graduated from hs in 2020, from the local vo-tech hs, which is really quite good and quite established.  I asked him what he majored in there, and he said something like 'graphic communications, which used to be called graphic arts'.   He has never had a job in this field, and I asked him why, and he mumbled something like 'it is hard to get into'.  I then talked about his experience in the last three months of hs, as his school had to transition on a dime to online pandemic ed, which he said did just not work very well.   This young man is a nice kid, but is obviously noticeably below average in brainpower.  He said he tried to enroll in college that fall, did not say where, but it was also 100% ol, and he more or less flunked out.  Kids like this are far more common than many secular coastal academic types want to acknowledge, and we have done little for them... but it is also true that the conservative 'learn a trade' mantra ain't cuttin' it either, as most of the young people aren't like the go-getters mentioned in the OP's article.  For these kids, places like Wallyworld are more or less the default nowadays, and they ain't, dismalist, buyin' no houses on the income they earn there, even if somehow they have to come up with four-figure monthly rent for shitey slumlords' offerings in Rusty City.  And all these conditions were true in 2019, and covid has made all of these things *much much* worse (witness this kid who was essentially robbed of the last few months of hs,  not to mention put into an untenable college situation).   We have to do somethings abouto all these problems, but it does not appear that we have gotten that message yet.

[Wahoo Redux]

We have to do somethings abouto all these problems, but it does not appear that we have gotten that message yet.

Sure. 

But what?

Just asking as a secular coastal academic type stuck in the Rust Belt.

[Wahoo Redux]

This one covers some familiar materials but also focuses on the effect of the pandemic on young people's attitudes toward college.

Corrected URL:
Jaded with education, more Americans are skipping college

Thanks.

[kaysixteen]

Whatever should be done is probably a many-sided thing, and in any case will be very expensive.  BUt it is clear now that (mostly) necessary pandemic education efforts did leave many deficits in many kids, esp poorer ones.   And we must address it.

[marshwiggle]

Whatever should be done is probably a many-sided thing, and in any case will be very expensive.  BUt it is clear now that (mostly) necessary pandemic education efforts did leave many deficits in many kids, esp poorer ones.   And we must address it.

I've never seen any statistics about the relative cost/benefit analysis of graduates by grade. Statements are typically something like "university graduates have incomes X% higher than high school graduates" and "students graduate with an average of Y$ in debt." What would be informative would be to see what those are for, say, the bottom quartile of graduates. My guess is their earnings would be lower and their debt would be higher. If so, and those are many of the students deciding to forgo university, then they may indeed be much better off.

[kaysixteen]

All you say is true, but you are missing my point.   I am talking about the great deficits in k12 learning produced by pandemic ed policies, esp for poorer kids.   We cannot deny this, and we must do something about it.  On the four day school week thread, someone notes that some of the districts adopting this are going to do 4 days ftf and then a day of ol ed... who thinks that is a good idea, when we know from pandemic days that many kids simply did virtually no ol school, not having access to do so, for instance.

[apl68]

I had three "instant" responses to this article.

1) It is conflating the student debt issue with the pandemic issue.  Both matter, but they aren't the same thing.

2) Students who opt-out of college b/c they think it has no value and they will be better off than their college-attending peers will find out if they are right.  It is a gamble, but it is also their call.  (I feel like I'm channeling Dismalist, here).

3) The choice to do trades (as the last student did) has always been there, but now more HS graduates are considering that path.  Given the many tales of the unfocused, unmotivated stories we post and read here, that may be better for Higher Ed in the longish run, as average student quality (in terms of motivation, at least) should rise.

I am ready to be disabused of any of this take-aways. however.

I'd like to think that students who aren't a good fit for college could find these alternatives as well, and leave colleges with a smaller but better-suited student population.  I think the biggest concern that some people have is that students opting out of school to make reasonable money in the near term will be in trouble when employment and working opportunities start deteriorating again.

[FishProf]

I'd like to think that students who aren't a good fit for college could find these alternatives as well, and leave colleges with a smaller but better-suited student population.  I think the biggest concern that some people have is that students opting out of school to make reasonable money in the near term will be in trouble when employment and working opportunities start deteriorating again.

I agree that is the concern, but it assumes that "going to college" = "success", and that is not a warranted assumption, especially for the least academically inclined/motivated.

[apl68]

I'd like to think that students who aren't a good fit for college could find these alternatives as well, and leave colleges with a smaller but better-suited student population.  I think the biggest concern that some people have is that students opting out of school to make reasonable money in the near term will be in trouble when employment and working opportunities start deteriorating again.

I agree that is the concern, but it assumes that "going to college" = "success", and that is not a warranted assumption, especially for the least academically inclined/motivated.

Very true.  There is an overlap, though--students who probably could succeed in college, and might do better in the long term if they did, who are pursuing the quicker money in the short term now.  Some of them may find out later that they've made a mistake.

[marshwiggle]

I'd like to think that students who aren't a good fit for college could find these alternatives as well, and leave colleges with a smaller but better-suited student population.  I think the biggest concern that some people have is that students opting out of school to make reasonable money in the near term will be in trouble when employment and working opportunities start deteriorating again.

I agree that is the concern, but it assumes that "going to college" = "success", and that is not a warranted assumption, especially for the least academically inclined/motivated.

Very true.  There is an overlap, though--students who probably could succeed in college, and might do better in the long term if they did, who are pursuing the quicker money in the short term now.  Some of them may find out later that they've made a mistake.

There's nothing preventing them going later, if circumstances change. It's hardly a one-chance-in-a-lifetime decision.

[FishProf]

There's nothing preventing them going later, if circumstances change. It's hardly a one-chance-in-a-lifetime decision.

That is not always true.  Very often the circumstances that result from the initial decision DO prevent them from going back later.