AP News: "Jaded With Education"

[marshwiggle]

There's nothing preventing them going later, if circumstances change. It's hardly a one-chance-in-a-lifetime decision.

That is not always true.  Very often the circumstances that result from the initial decision DO prevent them from going back later.

Things like part-time studies are often still possible. Unless it's the "straight-out-of-high-school experience" they're after, the education itself isn't completely out of reach.

[apl68]

There's nothing preventing them going later, if circumstances change. It's hardly a one-chance-in-a-lifetime decision.

That is not always true.  Very often the circumstances that result from the initial decision DO prevent them from going back later.

Things like part-time studies are often still possible. Unless it's the "straight-out-of-high-school experience" they're after, the education itself isn't completely out of reach.

It can be a lot tougher, though.  And for some people it does end up for all practical purposes out of reach.  Where it is possible, it can take a long time to get into a position to do it.  My brother blew off his chance at college as a traditional-age student.  He did eventually go back and complete a degree--thirty years later.

[jimbogumbo]

And there is this: https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling

[Wahoo Redux]

And there is this: https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling

Overall, this new approach is eminently reasonable.

I do wonder, however, what the job market will do when you have non-college applicant vs. a college applicant.  The job may have been "opened up to non-degree holders," but won't the bachelor's (with at least some experience) still provide the better credential in most cases?

[marshwiggle]

And there is this: https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling

Overall, this new approach is eminently reasonable.

I do wonder, however, what the job market will do when you have non-college applicant vs. a college applicant.  The job may have been "opened up to non-degree holders," but won't the bachelor's (with at least some experience) still provide the better credential in most cases?

From the article:

So far, there is no perfect, universal alternative assessment to identify the professional skills employers have previously relied on a Bachelor's degree to signal. But Rosenblum and Ahmed from Opportunity@Work say there's a lot of work happening right now to develop those tools, such as creating micro-credentials for individual industries. Software developers reflect a good example of an industry that has embraced new hiring practices, partly because employers have found other ways to verify the quality of someone's coding skills, making college degrees less relevant. The challenge is finding out how to create comparable assessments for other fields.

One thing that isn't mentioned in the article is the history of politicians, media, and post-secondary institutions driving students by pointing out stats about average income of graduates vs. non-graduates, etc. If candidate evaluation processes improve so that it becomes easy to hire successfully without using the signal value of a degree, the current declines that people have noted on here will pale in significance to what happens then.

[apl68]

And there is this: https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling

Overall, this new approach is eminently reasonable.

I do wonder, however, what the job market will do when you have non-college applicant vs. a college applicant.  The job may have been "opened up to non-degree holders," but won't the bachelor's (with at least some experience) still provide the better credential in most cases?

Well, this employer can't afford to be choosy.  I'd ideally like to hire qualified degree holders here.  At least somebody with an MLS and relevant specialty for our children's services work, and a couple of B.A.s for other positions.  But credentials like these are in very short supply around here, and we can't pay enough to bring people in from outside.  If I could get experienced and reliable clerical-level staff to run the front desk, and somebody with a modicum of education and experience with children, and a real interest in the work, to cover children's services, I'd be content. 

[financeguy]

I have a friend in the data science field who took a micro credentialing program and got into a data analysis role after building a portfolio on his own. Not only is the idea that "you can just learn things on youtube" VERY prevalent, but it is also often seen by those who have done it as the "preferred" way, since it demonstrates one does not need hand holding. This individual often actively encourages those at his company to prioritize applicants without the formal degree as opposed to a bootcamp or certificate. I have seen negative sentiment by many in management toward MBA holders as well. Of course, this will not be everywhere but will be common in certain environments.

Low quality programs that do not produce applicants with superior skills to those who have followed a web tutorial probably deserve to have their status as a signaling mechanism lessened.

[Wahoo Redux]

And there is this: https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling

Overall, this new approach is eminently reasonable.

I do wonder, however, what the job market will do when you have non-college applicant vs. a college applicant.  The job may have been "opened up to non-degree holders," but won't the bachelor's (with at least some experience) still provide the better credential in most cases?

Well, this employer can't afford to be choosy.  I'd ideally like to hire qualified degree holders here.  At least somebody with an MLS and relevant specialty for our children's services work, and a couple of B.A.s for other positions.  But credentials like these are in very short supply around here, and we can't pay enough to bring people in from outside.  If I could get experienced and reliable clerical-level staff to run the front desk, and somebody with a modicum of education and experience with children, and a real interest in the work, to cover children's services, I'd be content.

I could see that.  I'm applying for an academic job which starts next year, and failing that, or if I turn it down, I had thought about applying to one of the only other spaces on the planet which wouldn't make me zonkers----and my love of libraries came to mind.  Your comment is good news.

But I was thinking more of the clerical and customer service jobs I used to have.  I worked in both business and the government.  I found I was easily hirable with a college degree, even as many of my co-workers had no more than a high school degree and the job itself required no college-level skills. 

Amazon is laying off 9K.  Best Buys are closing at a rate of a couple a year.  Walmarts and Bed, Bath, & Beyonds are also closing in many places.  We are about to lose our J.C. Penny.  Even some McDonalds are closing.  What are these people going to do? 

[kaysixteen]

I get that rural libraries, for instance, in many areas of the country may well have difficulty getting credentialed hires, but many MLS holders still cannot get professional work.  There are reasons for this, and deprofessionalization of librarianship is one of them.   There are numerous jobs in this country that are overcredentialed in terms of their hiring expectations, but not all of them, and many jobs would indeed be best filled by someone who has a degree, possession of which shows a great deal about that person.

[apl68]

I get that rural libraries, for instance, in many areas of the country may well have difficulty getting credentialed hires, but many MLS holders still cannot get professional work.  There are reasons for this, and deprofessionalization of librarianship is one of them.   There are numerous jobs in this country that are overcredentialed in terms of their hiring expectations, but not all of them, and many jobs would indeed be best filled by someone who has a degree, possession of which shows a great deal about that person.

I get the impression that there is now something of an oversupply of MLS holders in some parts of the country.  There was a big push to recruit more MLS students some years back.  A number of schools started new MLS programs.  In some cases admissions standards slipped.  I know that when I was in library school in the early 2010s we had a number of classmates who really did not seem ready for prime-time, so to speak.  Many of the newly-minted MLS holders ended up congregating in urban areas where there was an abundance of people with their credentials, and were unable, or unwilling to consider, moving to places where there was a shortage of qualified librarians.

Does any of the above sound familiar to academics?

My advice to anybody considering a library career has always been to get a foot in the door first by working at a library, then, if that seems to be working out, study for the MLS.  Libraries are usually good about working with staff members who want to study for the MLS while working.  A veteran of a PhD program who finds library work congenial will find MLS work very doable, though not necessarily a walk in the park.

[kaysixteen]

Areas with heavy oversupply of MLS holders are going to offer minimal job opps for non-MLSs seeking to get that foot in the door, except in libraries that really have overtly deprofessionalized, places where subsequent obtaining of an expensive MLS would not be an asset, not get one into a better, more professionally-paid post.

Now I recall in the late 90s when I considered getting the MLS, as I was finishing up my PhD.   I was concerned that I might not find work as a librarian if I got it, so I (naively) asked the library school chair what my chances of getting professional work with an MLS would be.  He said 'virtually 100% as long as you were willing to relocate'.  I then got the degree and started looking.   And I ran into a (for me) unexpected, but in hindsight perfectly reasonable, problem, namely that many (often rural) libraries/ library directors and boards, in flyover country, for instance, are less than eager to import someone to work there, someone who has no ties or background to the place.   Really, they ain't.   I did try.

[apl68]

You see a good bit of promoting from within at libraries.  That's one reason I said what I did about getting a foot in the door.  Libraries looking to bring somebody in from outside also really want years' worth of experience, in addition to the MLS. 

And libraries, like academic departments seeking a potential tenure-track hire, want professional-level candidates who are a good fit and are likely to stick around, rather than use the position as a stepping stone to something else.  I had never in my life visited the town where I now work before my interview here.  However, I was from a similar rural-industrial mill town a couple of hours away in the same state.  I spoke the community's "language," and was able to express genuine enthusiasm at the prospect of moving and living here.  And I had eight years' worth of full-time library work, on top of a couple of years as a student assistant at the library.  Things like that all count for a lot with search committees.  I was in many ways underqualified for the position--I didn't yet have a complete MLS, and I had experience at a very different type of library.  But I looked like (because I was) somebody who really cared about sticking around and growing into the position.  Which, over the years, I have.

What can I say?  Professional-level library work is a profession that, like other professions, is neither quick nor easy to break into.  The general public seems to have the idea that any fool who's at least literate can be a librarian.  They don't seem to understand that it takes actual education and experience to do the job well.  That's why I caution people who may be thinking about going into the business. 

Library work is a bit like academic work in that it seems very attractive to people with a certain type of personality.  They imagine that it would be such a wonderful way to make a living.  And it can be--but it involves a good deal of specialized education and dues-paying, there is such a thing as fit between candidate and position, and like any job there are times when it can drive you crazy.

[kaysixteen]

All of what you say is true.   But it is also true that it is much truer now than it was in the 90s, for various reasons, when numerous folks seeking second career options entered library school with no previous experience, and often (like I did) plowed on through in the minimum time (three semesters, one of which was summer school), 1) without anyone telling us to do anything different, like not going through as fast in order to spend time interning, etc, and 2) with library schools often acting as cash cows for their unis, taking all comers (a number of folks I went to library school with really had no business in any sort of grad program).  Then the tech bubble burst and large numbers of unemployed IT professionals entered library land... and then, well... but none of these changes have yet resulted in library schools downsizing their student bodies, like it or not.

[apl68]

All of what you say is true.   But it is also true that it is much truer now than it was in the 90s, for various reasons, when numerous folks seeking second career options entered library school with no previous experience, and often (like I did) plowed on through in the minimum time (three semesters, one of which was summer school), 1) without anyone telling us to do anything different, like not going through as fast in order to spend time interning, etc, and 2) with library schools often acting as cash cows for their unis, taking all comers (a number of folks I went to library school with really had no business in any sort of grad program).  Then the tech bubble burst and large numbers of unemployed IT professionals entered library land... and then, well... but none of these changes have yet resulted in library schools downsizing their student bodies, like it or not.

Like I said, a lot of this seems all too familiar to those who've had a bad PhD school experience.  You're almost certainly right that library schools have been guilty of continuing to overproduce degrees.  Still, the glut's quite a bit worse in some places than in others.

There's also not a glut everywhere.  I live in a state that lacks a library school, and still has a clear shortage of MLS librarians.  Our State Library has for many years now had a scholarship program that reimburses library students' tuition to out-of-state online courses if they are employed at a public library, are committed to continuing to serve at a public library, and are prepared to show that they're serious by paying for the first few course hours themselves.  I took advantage of this program to help complete my degree a decade ago, after failing due to personal issues to complete my original information science degree several years earlier. 

Many rural librarians in our state owe our degree completion to this program.  There are also some professional-level staff members at larger libraries in the state who have had assistance in getting their degrees.  Our state's efforts to improve the supply of professionally trained librarians through carefully targeted funding seems like the sort of thing the country could stand to see a lot more of in some fields.  It's one way to redress a situation where some areas may have a glut of people with a certain qualification, while others lack enough.

[kaysixteen]

I see your well thought-out points, as always, but I do notice that you have not answered my hypothetical, namely, were you, as a library director in  your state, to receive an application from a recent MLS holder from, say, Connecticut, one who also had internships prior to getting the degree, perhaps, but had no ties or background to your state, or really to any state nearby to yours, would you hire that person?  And even if you were willing to do so, what might your library board think about that idea?  Remember that the candidate is not saying, in a cover letter, that he plans to work for you for two years and then high-tail it out of town, and if you interview him, he may actually say that he is willing to consider staying long term....