frightening student

[Langue_doc]

I'm afraid this guy going to murder someone. I think it's absurd that he's still allowed on campus. I also think it's extremely unfair to other students, especially female students, that they have to be in a classroom with this frightening and misogynistic person--that if he (correctly) freaks them out, they're effectively being told that they are the ones who will need to drop the class.

The bolded above is the problem. Students should not have to put up with someone like this student in their classes. What does admin tell students when they complain or when they drop the course? This isn't merely a question of fairness, but rather the right to have a classroom environment where students do not have to walk on eggshells.

[Hegemony]

Amen to what Stockmann is saying. If the experts were so exact in prediction, and if the system were so well-designed and effective in preventing violence from unbalanced people, we wouldn't have the level of violence we do have. As a PBS report about mass shootings at universities says, "Mass shootings tend to be boys and men in a noticeable crisis who communicate intent to do harm in advance."* (This is just mass shootings, meaning 4 or more people were shot. Violence toward fewer people should be similar.) In the great majority of these cases, the signs were there ahead of time, and in many cases, others noticed and tried to do something about the person who was clearly coming off the rails, but were unable to do so.

Now, maybe the guy in the OP's case will never do anything violent. But it is certainly not irrational to think that the potential is there. I wonder what idyllic realm some of you are living in, that you think the potential is negligible.

*https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-data-analysis-shows-about-campus-shootings

[Caracal]

Amen to what Stockmann is saying. If the experts were so exact in prediction, and if the system were so well-designed and effective in preventing violence from unbalanced people, we wouldn't have the level of violence we do have. As a PBS report about mass shootings at universities says, "Mass shootings tend to be boys and men in a noticeable crisis who communicate intent to do harm in advance."* (This is just mass shootings, meaning 4 or more people were shot. Violence toward fewer people should be similar.) In the great majority of these cases, the signs were there ahead of time, and in many cases, others noticed and tried to do something about the person who was clearly coming off the rails, but were unable to do so.

Now, maybe the guy in the OP's case will never do anything violent. But it is certainly not irrational to think that the potential is there. I wonder what idyllic realm some of you are living in, that you think the potential is negligible.

*https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-data-analysis-shows-about-campus-shootings

Well, I think the potential is relatively slight, because mass shootings are rare. Way too common, but rare in the broader sense. And I'm saying this as someone who taught a student who tried to commit a mass shooting on campus the next semester. I can't go into teach and think about whether any of my students are dangerous or think about barricading doors or any of that. If I thought the risks were high enough to justify that kind of thing, I'd just quit. It doesn't mean this guy should be in classes. People don't need to be in perfect mental health to attend college, but they have to be able to function. We aren't therapists and if someone appears to be untethered from reality that's not something we can manage in a class and its not something students should be expected to manage.

[kaysixteen]

One more thing, actually two, comes to mind: 1) the cops/ security did hear that  the student in question was supposed to have said something threatening to a fellow student, and rejected the accusation-- people do , and can, lie-- and 2) the OP, and we here, do not know, really have no way of knowing, exactly what the level of scrutiny was that the cops, campus security, and campus mental health people, vetted the guy with.  They could easily have subjected him to a serious evaluation about which the OP simply knows nothing.

[Ruralguy]

Actually, what K16 says rings partly true to me, as I know that most forms of resolution are confidential, and even if they were not, no agency would necessarily feel obligated to inform the initial complainant of how the problem was resolved (unless it was by, say, a trial or hearing in which they were a witness, but even then, they aren't officially informed of the resolution).  That being said, I know how things can slip through the cracks or be resolved in a matter that is probably too superficial.

[Caracal]

Actually, what K16 says rings partly true to me, as I know that most forms of resolution are confidential, and even if they were not, no agency would necessarily feel obligated to inform the initial complainant of how the problem was resolved (unless it was by, say, a trial or hearing in which they were a witness, but even then, they aren't officially informed of the resolution).  That being said, I know how things can slip through the cracks or be resolved in a matter that is probably too superficial.

Yeah, I think that's right. There's no way for us, or for Qualiyah to know whether this has been handled well. Even if this was dealt with appropriately and thoroughly, that wouldn't take away all risk. Mental health and security professionals can't predict the future or see into someone's mind. There's just no way for an individual instructor to take control of the situation and keep everyone safe. The impulse to try to do that is coming from a larger systemic failure, but it's not something an individual can address. You have to just do your job which is

1. Report any new disturbing interactions. You shouldn't assume this is all just going into a hole because you aren't seeing the process

2. If you're teaching the student and they are being disruptive in class, or if you are hearing from advisees or colleagues that there are continuing problems, find a way to make it clear to the administration that this is something that needs to be dealt with independent of any threat concerns.


3.

[Antiphon1]

OP,

It's your class.  You are the the tip pf the spear, as it were, in this conflict.  What are your policies about disruptive behavior?  Consider offering the disruptive student the option to finish the semester online.  IE - "Student, I feel you are frustrated with your interactions in the classroom.  Would finishing this class virtually help you focus on the subject matter?"  This action removes any perceptions of retribution because it's all about helping the student meet their academic goals - passing the class, while allowing you to finish teaching your class on campus.  It's a mental heath quarantine.  You are giving the student time to recover. 

Good luck.  It's never easy trying to balance your responsibility to your class while maintaining contextual sensitivity. 

[kaysixteen]

On what campuses in this country would a professor have the right to unilaterally exile a student to involuntary online status?   Especially when that student has been investigated by competent campus security and mental health authorities and found not to be a threat?  Of course, merely asking the kid if he would consent to such an online exile is *somewhat different*, but not by much, since the kid may well feel that he has no choice but to accept, lest he be graded harshly, even failed, or perhaps also become the victim of bogus allegations of actual impropriety be lodged against him.   Remember that the professor- student relationship is a fundamentally unequal power one.

[Hegemony]

Almost every student I know would consider an offer not to have to come to class any longer a consummation devoutly to be wished. The chief problem I foresee is that all the other students would want the same perk.

[kaysixteen]

Some of them might consider this in those terms, yes, but if the student is given the 'I know you feel frustrated by your interactions in the course' line by a professor whose objective is to impose a 'mental health quarantine' on him, well... what do you think many such students' reactions might well be, and what would you as the professor do when/ if the student declines this kind offer?

[Caracal]

Some of them might consider this in those terms, yes, but if the student is given the 'I know you feel frustrated by your interactions in the course' line by a professor whose objective is to impose a 'mental health quarantine' on him, well... what do you think many such students' reactions might well be, and what would you as the professor do when/ if the student declines this kind offer?

Yeah, I agree, you can't do that. It probably violates disabilities law. You can't assume the student has a disability and create your own disability accommodation based on that. Among other problems, I hope the only incentive to come to class isn't attendance. Presumably the student would have a difficult time on the assessments if they aren't in class, so you'd basically be setting this student up to fail the course.

What you can do, is insist on a standard of behavior and tell the student that he can't do certain things in class and ask him to leave if he does  those things. It would make sense to try to frame this with compassion and you could hope that it might force people in administration to get involved. I wouldn't be excited about this option either with a volatile student who scares me, but I think you either have to do this, or just try to manage the behavior and get through the semester.

[FishProf]

There have been times when a disruptive student had not yet crossed the actionable line for campus police, but they were perfectly happy to station an officer outside the classroom 'just in case'.  They have never, in our department at least, had to do anything.  Their presence alone quelled the disruptive behavior.   Other students voiced their appreciation.

[fizzycist]

Mass shootings are exceedingly rare, to the point of being negligible risk.

I suspect that college students becoming violent and seriously hurting others inside the college environment is pretty rare (1 in 1,000? Not including men beating each other up at parties).

Students having serious and visible mental health issues is pretty common (maybe approaching 1 in 100?).

Students/faculty feeling uncomfortable around others and labeling them creepy is pretty common (at least as high as the last line).

IMO these frequencies suggest the need to be wary of overreacting. Sometimes learning to get through a bit of discomfort might be the best solution. And sometimes our students have issues but are just not ready to get care.

I've had a number of very close relationships with ppl with visible mental health issues and none of them were violent (although some could make ppl uncomfortable). Repeatedly calling the cops on them or getting them expelled doesn't accomplish much.

[Hegemony]

Mass shootings are exceedingly rare, to the point of being negligible risk.

I'd be interesting in knowing the number of planned mass shootings, or even individual shootings in similar environments, that are imminent but prevented. We've had several incidents at our own place where people with some degree of nefarious intent have been disarmed, and one at the local high school. That's in addition to one local mass shooting (at our high school, several killed, over 20 wounded), one local college mass shooting (~10 killed, a similar number injured at a university in a nearby town), and several incidents at our own place where people with some degree of nefarious intent have been disarmed. This is since I moved to town.  I guess compared to the millions of kids in high school and college, that's an infinitesimal fraction. It doesn't feel like a negligible risk, though. And for those of us who are female, we know that an obsessed misogynist threatening women is not rare at all. Nor is a violent man murdering a woman. Women are aware of the threat all the time, and not unjustifiably.

[ciao_yall]

Mass shootings are exceedingly rare, to the point of being negligible risk.

So are plane crashes, but that doesn't mean we don't find ways to thoughtfully prevent them.

Repeatedly calling the cops on them or getting them expelled doesn't accomplish much.

Agreed. Getting rid of easy access to guns would help.

I'm not naive - my cousin had a mental break in France, where guns are illegal, and stabbed his wife and his mother to death. So, while getting rid of guns will not eliminate all murders, imagine how many people he could have killed had he been easily able to access a gun.