Segregated graduation at GVSU

[marshwiggle]

The original email is confusingly worded and does sort of make it sound like the University has decided to hold these events on its own for different groups of students, rather than these being organized by student groups and the university is just helping coordinate all of this in the same way they are probably coordinating events for honor societies, or greek organizations.

It's not confusing; the university wants to take credit for this happening. There's no reason for the email at all otherwise.

The rest is just dishonest and lazy reporting by people who are desperate to have something to yell about.

No, it's the institution wanting to get a pat on the back for "inclusion" but at the same time avoid responsibility for any apparent exclusion. They're trying to have it both ways.

[Anselm]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/us/black-commencement-harvard.html

https://chicla.wisc.edu/event/latinx-new-student-orientation/


On the 3rd page of the following link you can find "Latino Photonics Camp".  Information on this event seems to have been erased from the internet.

https://www.indianhills.edu/cews/docs/kidscamp.pdf

[jimbogumbo]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/us/black-commencement-harvard.html

https://chicla.wisc.edu/event/latinx-new-student-orientation/


On the 3rd page of the following link you can find "Latino Photonics Camp".  Information on this event seems to have been erased from the internet.

https://www.indianhills.edu/cews/docs/kidscamp.pdf

I don't understand your point. This was a camp funded by an NSF initiative for Latino students.

[Caracal]

The original email is confusingly worded and does sort of make it sound like the University has decided to hold these events on its own for different groups of students, rather than these being organized by student groups and the university is just helping coordinate all of this in the same way they are probably coordinating events for honor societies, or greek organizations.

It's not confusing; the university wants to take credit for this happening. There's no reason for the email at all otherwise.

The rest is just dishonest and lazy reporting by people who are desperate to have something to yell about.

No, it's the institution wanting to get a pat on the back for "inclusion" but at the same time avoid responsibility for any apparent exclusion. They're trying to have it both ways.

I guess, but it's no more sinister than the school announcing that its chess team, which is a club sport has won the upper north region championship.

The obsession with exclusion is really weird. Nobody is being excluded. If this is a student organization, exclusion on the basis of protected categories is almost certainly not allowed. When groups are based on affinity, people who don't consider themselves to be part of that group don't want to join. I wouldn't join a group for first gen students and faulty because my parents went to college. Why would I want to be part of a group that is designed to meet the interests and concerns of people who aren't me? If I join the group just so I can get free pizza on Fridays, I'm likely to feel like an interloper.

[Caracal]

Then the ridiculous part is the university providing  or funding *all of the celebrations. The university provides the universal events; individuals can do whatever they want on their own or with whoever else they want to associate.

*They don't need to provide any specific celebration; that's what families and friends are for.

Should I be mad that the Chess Club had a ice cream social?

Not if they didn't have it in any university facilities. If they had it off-campus, then they're not bound by any campus rules, and the university has no reason to be concerned.

Why should they have to have it off campus? On campus is likely to be more convenient and they don't need to spend money renting a space. The university isn't endorsing events by allowing them to be held. In fact, Public Universities can't prohibit events based on content. If the chess club can reserve a room, so can the college Libertarians

As I said above, any event happening on university property, whether it's sanctioned by the university or not, will be treated by the public as if it were sanctioned. So the institution needs to have clear rules about what can and can't be done on campus, whether an event is sanctioned or not, and enforce them, if they don't want to wind up being blamed for something that they would not have approved.

Having it in university facilities (which are funded by the university) but requiring no oversight is a recipe for disaster. (Universities aren't unique in this; any organization would face the same issue because people outside the institution don't make distinctions about whether events or actions are "approved" or not; if it happened there, with their knowledge, then it's "their" event.)

Yes, that's why universities all have pages and pages of rules about these things. If the event is of a certain size, or includes x, then you have to do y. All events involving z have to have preapproval and then you need to do various things. Schools are well aware of all these risks. Seriously, go find a school of any size and look this up and you'll find enough rules to make your eyes glaze over.

[marshwiggle]

Segregated graduation? Segregated orientations, dorms, social functions, too. Nothing new here. Even has its own name: Neo-segregation.

Governor Wallace, with his: "Segregation today . . . segregation tomorrow . . . segregation forever" in 1964 must have gotten it just right.

There's an opportunity for institutions who can market themselves on the absence of any of these. "We believe our community includes everyone. All of our events, clubs, etc. are open to anyone, and based on interests, rather than identity. If you want to part of that kind of community, check us out."


I think it would have a lot of appeal.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Conservatives: Ethno-nationalists that are invited by student groups to speak at universities must be welcomed to campus with open arms and any protests or heckling are unAmerican!

Also conservatives: Student groups may not under any circumstances hold events that celebrate their ethnic or cultural heritage on campus!

[marshwiggle]

Conservatives: Ethno-nationalists that are invited by student groups to speak at universities must be welcomed to campus with open arms and any protests or heckling are unAmerican!

Also conservatives: Student groups may not under any circumstances hold events that celebrate their ethnic or cultural heritage on campus!

From another thread, the policy at Stanford:

"Stanford's event disruption policy gives attendees a right to hold signs and to demonstrate disagreement in other ways as long as the methods used do not 'prevent or disrupt the effective carrying out of a University function or approved activity, such as lectures, meetings, interviews, ceremonies... and public events,'" she wrote.

If followed, that sounds like a good line to draw.

[dismalist]

Segregated graduation? Segregated orientations, dorms, social functions, too. Nothing new here. Even has its own name: Neo-segregation.

Governor Wallace, with his: "Segregation today . . . segregation tomorrow . . . segregation forever" in 1964 must have gotten it just right.

There's an opportunity for institutions who can market themselves on the absence of any of these. "We believe our community includes everyone. All of our events, clubs, etc. are open to anyone, and based on interests, rather than identity. If you want to part of that kind of community, check us out."


I think it would have a lot of appeal.

Of course I agree in principle. But it would take only a small existing identity group on campus to torpedo any such effort. You've got to get unanimity  on campus and that ain't gonna happen.

[Hegemony]

At every campus I've known that had such things, these events are initiated and run by the groups themselves, and are in addition to the main graduation. I'm sure none of you good people would say, "The members of the Black Students' Association and the Asian Students' Association are prohibited from celebrating in their groups!" 

Some of you will say, "Why not the White Men's Association? Are you gonna discriminate against them, huh?"

So, sure, go ahead and form a White Men's Association. But recognize that those who have been historically marginalized benefit from the community of others in their group. I'd bet that all you white men get together in white men's groups pretty often still. I see our de facto white men's association getting together and going off to the bar together after every department meeting.

[dismalist]

At every campus I've known that had such things, these events are initiated and run by the groups themselves, and are in addition to the main graduation. I'm sure none of you good people would say, "The members of the Black Students' Association and the Asian Students' Association are prohibited from celebrating in their groups!" 

Some of you will say, "Why not the White Men's Association? Are you gonna discriminate against them, huh?"

So, sure, go ahead and form a White Men's Association. But recognize that those who have been historically marginalized benefit from the community of others in their group. I'd bet that all you white men get together in white men's groups pretty often still. I see our de facto white men's association getting together and going off to the bar together after every department meeting.

I'm fine with some of this, except many aspects may not be legal, and God knows where it will stop.  So change the laws -- no more Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- and let Whites officially discriminate, too. Let's allow discrimination on the basis of sex and religion while we're at it. That can't be what anybody wants.

[Caracal]

Segregated graduation? Segregated orientations, dorms, social functions, too. Nothing new here. Even has its own name: Neo-segregation.

Governor Wallace, with his: "Segregation today . . . segregation tomorrow . . . segregation forever" in 1964 must have gotten it just right.

There's an opportunity for institutions who can market themselves on the absence of any of these. "We believe our community includes everyone. All of our events, clubs, etc. are open to anyone, and based on interests, rather than identity. If you want to part of that kind of community, check us out."


I think it would have a lot of appeal.

Of course I agree in principle. But it would take only a small existing identity group on campus to torpedo any such effort. You've got to get unanimity  on campus and that ain't gonna happen.

At a public university, that kind of policy wouldn't pass constitutional muster, both on free speech and free association grounds. A University can't regulate clubs based on their opinion of their purpose. You can't forbid clubs that are dedicated to politics, or human rights, or shared identity.

[Caracal]

At every campus I've known that had such things, these events are initiated and run by the groups themselves, and are in addition to the main graduation. I'm sure none of you good people would say, "The members of the Black Students' Association and the Asian Students' Association are prohibited from celebrating in their groups!" 

Some of you will say, "Why not the White Men's Association? Are you gonna discriminate against them, huh?"

So, sure, go ahead and form a White Men's Association. But recognize that those who have been historically marginalized benefit from the community of others in their group. I'd bet that all you white men get together in white men's groups pretty often still. I see our de facto white men's association getting together and going off to the bar together after every department meeting.

I'm fine with some of this, except many aspects may not be legal, and God knows where it will stop.  So change the laws -- no more Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- and let Whites officially discriminate, too. Let's allow discrimination on the basis of sex and religion while we're at it. That can't be what anybody wants.

Nobody is discriminating. Anybody can join the black students association. Just like anyone can join campus Hillel. As it happens, while non black students might go to events put on by the black students association and non jewish students might come to a Hillel event, people who don't consider themselves jewish or black don't generally want to join. I'm not sure why this is apparently so confusing.

[dismalist]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

[Langue_doc]

The various celebrations based on ethnicity are troublesome for a variety of reasons. What kind of activities does the school consider Asian, for example?

That would be decided by the Asian Student Union or similar affinity group that is putting on the celebration. So you need not worry about that. They'll take care of it. They know what's best for them, not you.

I've had so-called Asian students complain bitterly about this arbitrary classification imposed on them. This came up in a discussion of a newspaper article (here in the city, students graduating from high schools are for the most part not Caucasian). Their complaint was that this arbitrary grouping was based on geography for just one continent. There are no such categories for the other continents: no "African Student Union" despite the fact that we do have students who are recent immigrants from African countries. Likewise, there are no "European Student Unions" or "South American Student Unions". Students of Haitian origin pointed out that they did not have much in common with Black students because of their language and religion. Students from the Caribbean countries were likewise dismayed as they felt, correctly, that the school should focus on academics and not group students based on arbitrary ethnic classifications.

Listen to your students.