Segregated graduation at GVSU

[marshwiggle]

I'd bet that all you white men get together in white men's groups pretty often still. I see our de facto white men's association getting together and going off to the bar together after every department meeting.

You see de facto identity associations all over the place; at restaurants, at certain sporting and/or entertainment events, etc. But they don't advertise them that way. (The "Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant" is referring to the kind of food served there, not to the kind of patrons who are welcome. In fact, the authenticity (and quality) of the food is often suggested by the number of people from that group who go there, but the goal is pretty much always to attract as many people as possible who aren't from that group.)

[Caracal]

The various celebrations based on ethnicity are troublesome for a variety of reasons. What kind of activities does the school consider Asian, for example?

That would be decided by the Asian Student Union or similar affinity group that is putting on the celebration. So you need not worry about that. They'll take care of it. They know what's best for them, not you.

I've had so-called Asian students complain bitterly about this arbitrary classification imposed on them. This came up in a discussion of a newspaper article (here in the city, students graduating from high schools are for the most part not Caucasian). Their complaint was that this arbitrary grouping was based on geography for just one continent. There are no such categories for the other continents: no "African Student Union" despite the fact that we do have students who are recent immigrants from African countries. Likewise, there are no "European Student Unions" or "South American Student Unions". Students of Haitian origin pointed out that they did not have much in common with Black students because of their language and religion. Students from the Caribbean countries were likewise dismayed as they felt, correctly, that the school should focus on academics and not group students based on arbitrary ethnic classifications.

Listen to your students.

I mean look, Racial and ethnic classifications are, by their nature, arbitrary, but that doesn't mean they don't have meaning. It also matters a  who is imposing these classifications. The examples you are using are really rather different things. I can understand why your students don't like reading news stories about "asian students" if they don't feel like that term describes anything about their lives or backgrounds. On the other hand if there is an "Asian Student" group of some kind on your campus, that is because some students must be embracing the idea of a pan asian identity, and feel like there are ways such a group could address issues of concern, or that some students would enjoy being part of such a group.

Some of this seems to me to be coming from a way that younger people often imagine everyone is trying to impose things on them. The existence of an Asian student association doesn't compel anyone to identify as Asian if they don't want to. Just don't join.

[marshwiggle]

I mean look, Racial and ethnic classifications are, by their nature, arbitrary, but that doesn't mean they don't have meaning. It also matters a  who is imposing these classifications. The examples you are using are really rather different things. I can understand why your students don't like reading news stories about "asian students" if they don't feel like that term describes anything about their lives or backgrounds. On the other hand if there is an "Asian Student" group of some kind on your campus, that is because some students must be embracing the idea of a pan asian identity, and feel like there are ways such a group could address issues of concern, or that some students would enjoy being part of such a group.

Some of this seems to me to be coming from a way that younger people often imagine everyone is trying to impose things on them. The existence of an Asian student association doesn't compel anyone to identify as Asian if they don't want to. Just don't join.

So does that mean white people, including white students, can object to being identified as such, because of things being imposed on them?

[Caracal]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

[marshwiggle]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

One underlying idea in all of this is that it is acceptable, or even praise-worthy, to identify as some things, but inherently shameful to identify as others (such as white, straight, etc.). That double standard is the problem.

[MarathonRunner]

My university has a special celebration for Indigenous students. Given Canada's history of poor treatment of Indigenous peoples (the last residential school was only closed in the 1990s) and given the lack of understand of many/most non-Indigenous Canadians of our various histories, practices, and traditions (we are not monolithic- my traditions as Métis are very different from the Haida, for example) I think it is perfectly acceptable for us to have our own celebration. Many wouldn't understand or would condemn smudging. Many wouldn't understand the other traditions, of which there are many. Our Indigenous students' centre has sadly been vandalized multiple times, simply for existing. Many Canadians object to Truth and Reconciliation. Many of us are the first in our families to attend university. We experience racism, as well as ongoing and lasting trauma from residential schools and many of us have lost our languages and traditions, as they were illegal for many years. How does it hurt anyone to allow us to have our own celebration? Since the university's founding, until recently, all the celebrations were designed for white settlers, and originally male, white settlers. Blacks and Indigenous people couldn't even apply for admission for many, many years.

[dismalist]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

Voluntary segregation. Sure. Absolutely. Same thing for Whites, though.

Such as: We're having a White graduation experience, and you, not being White, don't really want to attend. Oh, and it's not illegal on account we have this White Club, see? Of course the White Club does get its funds from the University, i.e. through tuition. Cool.

As I said, it's called neo-segregation.

[Caracal]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

Voluntary segregation. Sure. Absolutely. Same thing for Whites, though.

Such as: We're having a White graduation experience, and you, not being White, don't really want to attend. Oh, and it's not illegal on account we have this White Club, see? Of course the White Club does get its funds from the University, i.e. through tuition. Cool.

As I said, it's called neo-segregation.

I mean this makes sense if you don't believe in history or context I suppose. I think it's telling that this is always the counter example. Is Campus Hillel a religiously exclusive organization designed to exclude non jewish students?

[dismalist]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

Voluntary segregation. Sure. Absolutely. Same thing for Whites, though.

Such as: We're having a White graduation experience, and you, not being White, don't really want to attend. Oh, and it's not illegal on account we have this White Club, see? Of course the White Club does get its funds from the University, i.e. through tuition. Cool.

As I said, it's called neo-segregation.

I mean this makes sense if you don't believe in history or context I suppose. I think it's telling that this is always the counter example. Is Campus Hillel a religiously exclusive organization designed to exclude non jewish students?

There's nothing counter about it; it's pro equal identitarian rights. White Clubs on campus, getting tuition money are OK, I infer.

[Hegemony]

There's nothing counter about it; it's pro equal identitarian rights. White Clubs on campus, getting tuition money are OK, I infer.

In my experience, most of the clubs on campus, getting tuition money, are de facto White Clubs.

[dismalist]

There's nothing counter about it; it's pro equal identitarian rights. White Clubs on campus, getting tuition money are OK, I infer.

In my experience, most of the clubs on campus, getting tuition money, are de facto White Clubs.

I guess if no non-whites wish to join the ubiquitous White Clubs everything is fine. If the racial barriers on campus are truly voluntary, we can repeal the Civil rights Act of 1964.

Neo-segregation.

[marshwiggle]

Nobody is discriminating.

From your lips to God's ears

I really am trying to figure out what you imagine is occurring here. Do you think there are students who don't identify as black who would like to join black student organizations and are being denied membership? Would a student who didn't identify as black feel comfortable in such a group. Probably not, but a student who doesn't have any interest in Anime is probably not going to be particularly comfortable in the Anime Club either, which is why they won't join. Is Campus Hillel a discriminatory group because it is designed for Jewish students on campus?

Voluntary segregation. Sure. Absolutely. Same thing for Whites, though.

Such as: We're having a White graduation experience, and you, not being White, don't really want to attend. Oh, and it's not illegal on account we have this White Club, see? Of course the White Club does get its funds from the University, i.e. through tuition. Cool.

As I said, it's called neo-segregation.

I mean this makes sense if you don't believe in history or context I suppose. I think it's telling that this is always the counter example.

Of course it is, because for decades we've realized that such a thing is a really bad idea. The suggestion with neo-segregation is that the only thing that was "really bad" about it was that we got the category wrong, not that the segregation itself was bad.

Is Campus Hillel a religiously exclusive organization designed to exclude non jewish students?

I don't know. It depends on what the rules and regulations are.

[Diogenes]

Then the ridiculous part is the university providing  or funding *all of the celebrations. The university provides the universal events; individuals can do whatever they want on their own or with whoever else they want to associate.

*They don't need to provide any specific celebration; that's what families and friends are for.

Should I be mad that the Chess Club had a ice cream social?

Not if they didn't have it in any university facilities. If they had it off-campus, then they're not bound by any campus rules, and the university has no reason to be concerned.

So you are saying, that no student club should or affinity group use university facilities for their events? What if the college republicans want to bring, say, invite a controversial conservative commentator? Thanks for keeping your logic consistent!

[marshwiggle]

Then the ridiculous part is the university providing  or funding *all of the celebrations. The university provides the universal events; individuals can do whatever they want on their own or with whoever else they want to associate.

*They don't need to provide any specific celebration; that's what families and friends are for.

Should I be mad that the Chess Club had a ice cream social?

Not if they didn't have it in any university facilities. If they had it off-campus, then they're not bound by any campus rules, and the university has no reason to be concerned.

So you are saying, that no student club should or affinity group use university facilities for their events?

No, I'm saying any event using university facilities should be subject to whatever rules and regulations cover university-sponsored events. This already applies to things like serving alcohol; typically the institution has rules that must be followed by any group having an event on campus which serves alcohol. Similarly, if the university has rules about who can and cannot be excluded from university events and spaces, and what kind of advertising can be done for university events, then those should apply to any events using university facilities.

What if the college republicans want to bring, say, invite a controversial conservative commentator? Thanks for keeping your logic consistent!

Unless there's something specific about the event, then presumably they would have to follow whatever rules apply to bringing in guest lecturers and outside people to various campus events. I'd be surprised if the university had a rule against speakers who were "controversial" or "conservative", but any rules they might have (such as having a maximum honorarium of $X, for instance) should apply.

[Caracal]

Then the ridiculous part is the university providing  or funding *all of the celebrations. The university provides the universal events; individuals can do whatever they want on their own or with whoever else they want to associate.

*They don't need to provide any specific celebration; that's what families and friends are for.

Should I be mad that the Chess Club had a ice cream social?

Not if they didn't have it in any university facilities. If they had it off-campus, then they're not bound by any campus rules, and the university has no reason to be concerned.

So you are saying, that no student club should or affinity group use university facilities for their events?

No, I'm saying any event using university facilities should be subject to whatever rules and regulations cover university-sponsored events. This already applies to things like serving alcohol; typically the institution has rules that must be followed by any group having an event on campus which serves alcohol. Similarly, if the university has rules about who can and cannot be excluded from university events and spaces, and what kind of advertising can be done for university events, then those should apply to any events using university facilities.

What if the college republicans want to bring, say, invite a controversial conservative commentator? Thanks for keeping your logic consistent!

Unless there's something specific about the event, then presumably they would have to follow whatever rules apply to bringing in guest lecturers and outside people to various campus events. I'd be surprised if the university had a rule against speakers who were "controversial" or "conservative", but any rules they might have (such as having a maximum honorarium of $X, for instance) should apply.

I'm a bit turned around at this point. These are different pots of money. In the US, there is usually some kind of student activity fee tacked on to tuition. That money is controlled by the Student Government Association which disburses it to registered student groups. Only some of this is going to events, a lot of it is for operating budgets or for the club tennis team to go play in the tournament in Florida or whatever.

These organizations also can use university facilities for their events. Depending on the event, they might have to pay the school money for this. If you're having a prominent speaker come and talk to a large crowd in a performance space or the basketball gym, there are going to be various costs associated with getting the space ready, hiring security or event staff, etc. I doubt there are different rules for the events for student groups than for any other events.

Other rules may not apply, partly because of the different pots of money, but also because student groups are in a different position within the university than departments or administration. The SGA might have its own rules about honorariums, but they get to make those decisions in line with their budgets. At public universities, events sponsored by university entities are in a different legal category than those sponsored by student groups. There might be academic freedom issues if a school decided that a department couldn't put on an event because of a speaker's views, but if they tried to shut down a student event based on that, they would run into constitutional issues around free speech and association.