case studies

[FishProf]

No, the fact that some others view it, for stunning reasons, to be academically defensible does not mean that I think they have made their case.   They clearly have not.   Asserting something does not mean one has proved something.

You don't find the arguments persuasive.  Fine, neither do I.  To call the practice indefensible means no argument can be made for it.  That clearly isn't the case here, as you already said when you acknowledged the "grading on the curve thing".

If someone claimed "Christianity is indefensible" merely because they weren't persuaded by the arguments, I doubt you'd accept that claim.

[kaysixteen]

Let's think on this logically, according to the example I set-- you would have to explain to the Dean why someone who got 97.2% of the possible points for a class does not deserve to get an A in that class.  If this be true, then an 'A' in that class does not really mean anything-- what's next, giving a B to a kid with 99.98% of those points?  Grading on a curve as I have always understood it allows scaling of grades to bolster grades, but not the artificial deflation of other students' grades, which just serves no purpose, and would be hard enough to get students at advanced prep schools in  1957 to accept, but would be a hideous nonstarter today.

[kaysixteen]

I guess we are using 'indefensible' in different ways.  You are using it in a way that says 'if no one could build any arguments against something, only then is it 'indefensible'.   I am not willing to go there, but claim that 'indefensible only refers to the  inability to prove that something is bad.

[FishProf]

What you describe is scaling grades, not grading on a curve.

Not that it matters.  We are in disagreement about your "indefensible" claim.  You didn't address that.

[FishProf]

As much as I detest the dictionary definition argument, it seems appropriate here.

OED.  Indefensible - that cannot be defended or excused because it is morally unacceptable.

Is that not what you mean?  What then do you mean?

[ciao_yall]

One more thing here-- this biz school prof also has assumed a policy of competitive grading, whereby he only permits x% of As, etc, in his classes, regardless of how well any given student actually performs in the class.   Anyone want to offer ANY justification for this Jack Welch GE-style practice?

Preparation for the ruthless world of business?

Having worked for GE at one point under Jack Welch, and in the ruthless world of business, I can truly say that this sort of approach failed miserably.

High performance comes from doing well, oneself and promoting one's accomplishments for the company as a whole. Sometimes it even means (shudder) teamwork and giving credit where credit is due.

This type of forced ranking causes people to put energy into undermining/backstabbing high performers because it's easier and more efficient than actually doing good work.

[FishProf]

This type of forced ranking causes people to put energy into undermining/backstabbing high performers because it's easier and more efficient than actually doing good work.

The stereotypical pre-med comes to mind.

I've steered clear of these sorts of ranking schemes because I have so many pre-meds who try to exploit the system.

[dismalist]

This type of forced ranking causes people to put energy into undermining/backstabbing high performers because it's easier and more efficient than actually doing good work.

The stereotypical pre-med comes to mind.

I've steered clear of these sorts of ranking schemes because I have so many pre-meds who try to exploit the system.

Any ranking scheme incentivizes cheating. Not having a ranking scheme promotes sloth, or destroys the market. There is a tradeoff.

What's needed is punishment for cheating that is sufficiently severe to deter cheaters. Boil them in oil!

[Sun_Worshiper]

It's a blunt instrument for the real problem of grade inflation. I've seen it done this way, although I'm not particularly a fan. It shouldn't be that hard for faculty to implement grading standards that bring down scores below A-level for most students. After all, students are not mostly producing A-level work.

[kaysixteen]

I certainly am using the OED sense of the term, which should have been obvious.   And I stand with what I said.

Less stridently, and likely with less substantive evidence, I confess I will also acknowledge that I am generally at best unimpressed by biz-school scholarship.

[FishProf]

I certainly am using the OED sense of the term, which should have been obvious.   And I stand with what I said.

Less stridently, and likely with less substantive evidence, I confess I will also acknowledge that I am generally at best unimpressed by biz-school scholarship.

OK.  So you think grading on a curve is immoral.  Care to elaborate why?

I think it is counterproductive in the courses I teach and the way I design them, but I wouldn't say a colleague is wrong/immoral for using one.

You are entitled to your opinions, but so far, that is all you have offered.

[kaysixteen]

Because I believe that grades should be earned individually by each student.   Period.  If everyone gets an A, everyone gets an A.   Congratulate yourself on your successful teaching, or conclude that the assessment criteria were too lenient, but do not punish the students.