Texas Bill Nukes Tenure

[mleok]

But again, what's crucial for Texas, given this national market, is that replacements for any of us are waiting in the wings.

Nobody is questioning that they can find another warm body, what you have failed to demonstrate is that they can find an equally (or more) qualified and accomplished one.

[mleok]

The chart presented classifies as a doctoral institution any university that awards at least 20 research doctorates. This is consistent with the Carnegie classification, and includes the R1 (146 universities), R2 (133 universities), and D/PU (187 universities) categories. So, if 24.5% of these combined universities do not offer tenure, then that amounts to 114 universities, likely concentrated at the lower tiers. It is still very likely that the elimination of tenure would make UT Austin an outlier amongst R1 and most certainly amonst AAU institutions.

[dismalist]

But again, what's crucial for Texas, given this national market, is that replacements for any of us are waiting in the wings.

Nobody is questioning that they can find another warm body, what you have failed to demonstrate is that they can find an equally (or more) qualified and accomplished one.

People looking for academic careers are being overproduced, even in engineering. Those that have not landed TT jobs can't all be bad. No selection system is perfect.

[Ruralguy]

CS is general is not overproduced unless my school is unique for special reasons.  There could be colleges nobody wants to work at unless they "have to," but the fact that many don't think they have to suggests that there are lots of other good and maybe better options.

[mleok]

People looking for academic careers are being overproduced, even in engineering. Those that have not landed TT jobs can't all be bad. No selection system is perfect.

As a professor at the interface of applied mathematics and engineering, the students I see who are considering academia are attracted to it because of the security of tenure combined with the freedom to pursue their own research agenda. Without the protections of tenure, they would be much better off going into a research lab in industry instead, where they would be paid substantially more, and would have job security that is more closely tied to their performance than the politically driven drivel that states like Texas are pushing.

I think you severely underestimate how much tenure is part of the attraction of an academic job, particularly for STEM PhDs with lucrative non-academic options. Put another way, my first student accepted a job at Florida Institute of Technology straight out of graduate school, which did not have a tenure system at the time, and he moved to another institution with tenure the first chance he got. Later, Florida Institute of Technology would go on to introduce a tenure-track, citing the challenges it faced while recruiting and retaining faculty as the primary reason for doing so.

At the end of the day, all you have presented is an argument that maybe it won't be so bad for Texas, not that it'll enable them to recruit better faculty candidates, unless by better you mean those with no other choices.

[quasihumanist]

But again, what's crucial for Texas, given this national market, is that replacements for any of us are waiting in the wings.

Nobody is questioning that they can find another warm body, what you have failed to demonstrate is that they can find an equally (or more) qualified and accomplished one.

What those arguing against dismalist have failed to demonstrate is that there is a need for an (equally) qualified warm body.

In many ways, a less qualified person would be a better instructor for most of the students I have.

[MarathonRunner]

The fundamental point is that at current working conditions there is excess supply of faculty. Working in a university is just too good. Proof is the reserve army of adjuncts in the humanities and social sciences and the vast number of post docs in the sciences.

In some fields, but not all. In my professional field, profs are encouraging strong master's students to pursue a PhD and then enter academia, because for programs to remain accredited at the undergrad level, there needs to be a certain percentage of faculty with both a PhD and the professional designation. In Canada, currently, we don't produce enough PhDs with the professional designation to fill all the requirements for currently accredited undergrad programs. While that may not be common, people who have such options, or options outside of academia, aren't going to be looking at Texas, at all. So Texas will get people who couldn't secure better paying jobs elsewhere, thus decreasing the calibre of its university instructors.

[Mobius]

I can see this affecting recruitment in one state, but as more states do this, where are tenure-track jobs? Even very the "rock star" recent grads are going to run up against the lack of TT vacancies.

Playing into the rationale of some of these legislators, the undergrad students could be better off with an instructor focused on teaching rather than research. The 1,000-student lecture hall environment was awful during my undergrad experience.

Legislators are also having trouble seeing the value of research a dozen people might read, which is the unfortunate reality for many a journal article.

I do think some of the money spent on paying for traditional professional development could be better spent, such as possibly funding short-term study abroad trips with students, service learning, etc. However, I'm not naive to think that presidents, provosts, and deans would support such as shift in how professional development money could be used. That money would just be captured to shore up deficits across an institution.

[dismalist]

So Texas will get people who couldn't secure better paying jobs elsewhere, thus decreasing the calibre of its university instructors.

Suppose one could indeed rank the quality of potential faculty on a scale of one to whatever. Why should anyone think that those currently receiving tenure or a TT position are identifiable with certainty? So much goes into hiring decisions, that there will be some people who should have gotten tenure but have not. They can go to Texas.

Texas must of course have a rational retention system. But in the inexorable competition for prestige, there is no reason to believe they won't.

Leaving Texas aside, Maryland, not exactly a red state, has long had a five year post tenure review. I'm sure other states have this, too.

https://faculty.umd.edu/main/activity/post-tenure-review

[clean]

Texas also has long had a Post Tenure Review process. 
If the legislation becomes law, it will someday be irrelevant. 

Post tenure review is not the same as fixed term contracts. 

The bottom line is that there is both a supply and demand side to markets.  The supply of labor, according to Dismalist, is abundant, and because of whatever set of issues exist (for example, university employment is a good gig), and Texas universities will still have ample choices for hiring. 

Many of us seem to be arguing that is not true, modifying the statement to: "Tenure Track 'university employment is a good gig".  Fixed term University employment is very much less so, as it is subject to political will, state budgets, and much of the plethora of things that tenure protects faculty from. 

Further, the bulk of us seem to believe that should this become law,  faculty will be a. less likely to apply for jobs in Texas,  b.  less likely to stay at the hiring institution long term, (increasing search frequency and costs for the state and the contract employee), and finally c.  faculty members with the choice of a tenure track (safer) position will choose to either not come or not stay at those institutions. 

In graduate school, one of my dissertation committee members (and ultimately dean) would say, "dont worry about tenure requirements of your employer.  Make sure that you are keeping up with the market expectations and you will always be employed."  (he was saying to always be mobile  or at least Able - if not willing- to find another job.)
At the same time, it was clear to me that Tenure brought a great relief to those achieving it.  The newly tenured tended to have children, buy a house, buy a car, take a summer off or long delayed trip/vacation.  Given that the raise from the associated promotion was not usually much money (only a few thousand dollars), the raise itself wasnt sufficient to cover the expenditure!
IF one is always able and willing to find another job, good for them, but it is probably not what the majority of people look for (job/location mobility).  If one of the desires of generic faculty members is a happy spouse/family and spouses and children have desires and expectations for performance, how can that desire be met when a contract renewal (and subsequent job change) is always on the horizon? 

In addition, the phrase "Markets Work" doesnt mean that markets work quickly or efficiently.  Academic jobs, for instance are not 'year round'. There is a hiring season, and one could argue that is a limitation to the 'market's work' philosophy. 
Academic jobs are not low cost (to either side). 

To me, it seems inefficient for Texas to differentiate itself in a job market by adding a less desirable (to the job seeker) condition.  It seems that there is a political reason (by the MAGA Republican dominated legislature) that has not been fully thought through.


I dont want to extend this example too much, but here is another legislative demand that has real recourse/expense/ problems to the university.  Some time ago the state (not HR, but through state legislation), in its great wisdom legislated that if teachers (which includes university people), announce that they are not returning for the Fall term, that the state will not pay their share of the employees summer health benefits.  Practically, if you give a nice long notice to your department that you are leaving, then they end your health insurance with the end of the Spring term.  (Even if you have already contributed for a year's worth of insurance over the 9 months).  So given those rules, what do faculty do? Do they help the university by giving long notice?  No, the faculty member looking out for their own finances waits until August to give notice.   ... (I have seen some faculty give notice, only to find that the administration then cancels their summer classes or moves them to another person who is staying).   
This is a real life example of how people will respond to the decrees of the legislature. 

Remember, The University Will ALWAYS do what is in its best interest.  IF YOU are not looking out for YOUR interests, then NO ONE IS!

[dismalist]

There is no doubt that tenure is good for people who get tenure! The point at issue is whether it matters to Texas in abolishing it.

I came across this article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4309283/ a couple of weeks ago. A trio of engineers looks at PhD production in engineering, but also cites work for many other subjects.

Their method is to estimate R₀, the reproduction rate of PhD's, taken form biology. [We do spread like the plague!:-)].
The results for engineering, including Computer Science are astounding! R₀ is 7.2 or 7.4. That is to say in a high growth area like Computer Science each professor is producing 7.4 additional PhD computer scientists each year.

Being engineers, they lament all the competition. An economist embraces it. Plenty of good people left to occupy less well remunerated academic positions.

For English PhD's one can just look out the window, but if we can have a surplus of people who are preparing for an academic position in engineering, we can have it in anything. And, my point, they can't all be stupid!

[FishProf]

That's 7.4 new PhDs over the course of their career, not per year.

[dismalist]

That's 7.4 new PhDs over the course of their career, not per year.

Thank God!

[mleok]

What those arguing against dismalist have failed to demonstrate is that there is a need for an (equally) qualified warm body.

In many ways, a less qualified person would be a better instructor for most of the students I have.

That seems intentionally disingenious. Professors at research universities are chosen for the research achievements, not for their teaching ability.

[mleok]

There is no doubt that tenure is good for people who get tenure! The point at issue is whether it matters to Texas in abolishing it.

I came across this article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4309283/ a couple of weeks ago. A trio of engineers looks at PhD production in engineering, but also cites work for many other subjects.

Their method is to estimate R₀, the reproduction rate of PhD's, taken form biology. [We do spread like the plague!:-)].
The results for engineering, including Computer Science are astounding! R₀ is 7.2 or 7.4. That is to say in a high growth area like Computer Science each professor is producing 7.4 additional PhD computer scientists each year.

Being engineers, they lament all the competition. An economist embraces it. Plenty of good people left to occupy less well remunerated academic positions.

For English PhD's one can just look out the window, but if we can have a surplus of people who are preparing for an academic position in engineering, we can have it in anything. And, my point, they can't all be stupid!

As stated elsewhere, that is the average number of PhDs graduated per faculty member over the course of their career. I'm midcareer, and I have graduated 7 PhDs, with 6 more in the pipeline. But, a large reason why such fields are able to generate that many PhDs is because the non-academic job market is extremely lucrative, so that provides a significant pressure release valve on the system.

Yes, if academia was the only option for such students, then Texas could eliminate tenure with impunity, and without any significant consequences. But they're competing against a non-academic job market that offers starting salaries that exceeds what I make as a full professor with full summer salary, and with a salary ladder that makes deans, university presidents, and even some coaches appear poorly compensated.