"College Student Will Full Time Job Criticizes Professor"

[ciao_yall]

I had to work my way through college and it was hard.

Yes, there were some insensitive counselors and professors who would say things like "What is wrong with you that you can't get straight A's, like all the kids who don't have to work? And why don't you just go to community college, cuz it's free? Stop making excuses about why you can't drop everything and be at my office hours at an oddly inconvenient time, costing you X hours of your shift at the bank!"

Most were pretty flexible and generous. Not really worth putting off an engaged student who genuinely wants feedback when there are enough bozos dragging on your soul.

[MarathonRunner]

It sounds like the student wants online asynchronous college. There are many choices for that kind of learning. The student picked the wrong kind of college. That's the student's fault.

Well, no, the student doesn't seem to have a problem with going to classes, the issue is with meetings that can't be virtual and assignments where a physical copy is due outside of class periods, at least I think.

I can understand preferring in person meetings and even not mentioning the virtual ones as an option, but if a student says they can't make it in, and asks for a virtual meeting instead, it seems weird and rigid to refuse. You're in your office already, just open up zoom. Don't be a jerk.

In undergraduate studies I had a prof that wanted physical copies of an assignment under her door at a given date and time. I was lucky my partner could drop it off, as I had been advised not to leave my dorm room. I expect many students experience the same even if they can't see an MD.

[AvidReader]

I can understand preferring in person meetings and even not mentioning the virtual ones as an option, but if a student says they can't make it in, and asks for a virtual meeting instead, it seems weird and rigid to refuse. You're in your office already, just open up zoom. Don't be a jerk.

I haven't watched the video, but wanted to point out that there are many reasons to refuse a virtual meeting. At my last (admittedly underfunded) university, the wifi in the English building did not reach to faculty offices, and the hard-wired computer they provided could not handle microphone or video. I once attended a virtual faculty meeting by watching the livestream on the computer and calling in to the meeting on my office phone. So meeting online with a student would have required either taking my own computer to a place on campus with public wifi and discussing the student's work in a place with little to no privacy, or scheduling a call during my home hours and using all my resources to do so.

And if the student is unhinged enough to be ranting about me on TikTok, I'd probably hesitate to have a virtual meeting that also might show up on TikTok, possibly with edits and voiceovers.

AR.

[Caracal]

I got the sense that the student wanted feedback and the professor wanted the feedback to happen in a meeting where they could go over the project together? I think that could be done over zoom, although I don't completely understand the nature of the project and whether that would preclude a zoom conversation. If this was just about turning in the assignment or about a check in meeting, it does feel a bit unreasonable of the prof to not permit that. Honestly, with this student, having electronic records in the LMS of submissions and recordings of meetings would likely be in the prof's best interest.

And at any rate, even if there was some good reason to meet in person, you can usually make an exception. I do the same thing this professor does with feedback on assignments before they are due. If you want some feedback on your draft, you need to come meet with me, either in person or on Zoom. There are some pedagogical reasons for this. I think it can be more useful to have feedback be part of a discussion and I also do like to get to know students a little better. However, it's really about making things easier for me. I have a pile of grading already and I don't want a pile of assignments I need to provide feedback for in my inbox. If  students want feedback they are in charge of coming to office hours or scheduling a meeting with me for some other time.

Every once in a while, a student and I can't find any time that works for both of us to meet. When that happens, I just ask them to send me their draft and I email them some feedback. I would say this happens less than once a semester so there's no slippery slope problem. Boundaries and rules are fine, but they are they for our convenience. We don't need to get too attached to them.

[kaysixteen]

Indeed, we obviously do not know why this professor did what he did, but even if it were possible for him to have Zoomed with the lass, can we really fault the chap for standing for his basic professional dignity, and refusing to be treated like a servant?   Even the most egalitarian-minded amongst us would also have to acknowledge that this prof's actions will be a salutary teaching moment for the sprite, teaching her how not to act in professional situations, esp interacting with her superiors (hint: don't try this with your boss).

[Caracal]

Indeed, we obviously do not know why this professor did what he did, but even if it were possible for him to have Zoomed with the lass, can we really fault the chap for standing for his basic professional dignity, and refusing to be treated like a servant?   Even the most egalitarian-minded amongst us would also have to acknowledge that this prof's actions will be a salutary teaching moment for the sprite, teaching her how not to act in professional situations, esp interacting with her superiors (hint: don't try this with your boss).

I don't really see how professional dignity requires us to be rigid and unhelpful.

[jerseyjay]

I find Zoom a thoroughly unsatisfactory method of communication, and I won't use it for office hours. I will, however, happily talk on the telephone with students if they cannot come to my office. And if a student cannot come to my office hours, I will try to find another mutually convenient time or method to meet with them.

[marshwiggle]

I agree that it is up to the prof, who is the professional paid to orchestrate the class, how to use her time. 

But at the same time it does not hurt to help a student----even an entitled jerkface----work around their schedule a little bit. After all, the young woman in the video really is trying to better her life under a good deal of stress; her requests are not completely out-of-line, just maybe annoying; and her attitude is that of a spoiled brat, but I can kind of understand it----she's paying tuition and being met with a brick wall.

Every campus gives lip-service about how dedicated their faculty are yadda yadda, this has to be very bad PR for the campus.

An issue that doesn't seem to come up so far is "forgiveness" versus "permission". I've had lots of odd requests, including students who had a conflict with part of the lab time for the whole term, and as far as I can recall I've accommodated virtually all of them. (Except for wanting to add the course late; the deadline is two weeks into a 12 week term, so they can legally miss 1/6 of the course. More than that is insane.) However, that's a whole lot different from the person who asks at the end of the term if they can make up all of the lecture quizzes they missed because they didn't come to lectures. Uh, no.

If a student asked the prof before the term for flexibility around meetings, assignment submissions, etc. it has a completely different tone than saying "I HAVE TO WORK TOMORROW SO I NEED TO WRITE THE EXAM SOME OTHER TIME!"

This is a situation where my opinion would be greatly influenced by when this student first brought up the constraints of her work situation.

[Caracal]

I agree that it is up to the prof, who is the professional paid to orchestrate the class, how to use her time. 

But at the same time it does not hurt to help a student----even an entitled jerkface----work around their schedule a little bit. After all, the young woman in the video really is trying to better her life under a good deal of stress; her requests are not completely out-of-line, just maybe annoying; and her attitude is that of a spoiled brat, but I can kind of understand it----she's paying tuition and being met with a brick wall.

Every campus gives lip-service about how dedicated their faculty are yadda yadda, this has to be very bad PR for the campus.

An issue that doesn't seem to come up so far is "forgiveness" versus "permission". I've had lots of odd requests, including students who had a conflict with part of the lab time for the whole term, and as far as I can recall I've accommodated virtually all of them. (Except for wanting to add the course late; the deadline is two weeks into a 12 week term, so they can legally miss 1/6 of the course. More than that is insane.) However, that's a whole lot different from the person who asks at the end of the term if they can make up all of the lecture quizzes they missed because they didn't come to lectures. Uh, no.

If a student asked the prof before the term for flexibility around meetings, assignment submissions, etc. it has a completely different tone than saying "I HAVE TO WORK TOMORROW SO I NEED TO WRITE THE EXAM SOME OTHER TIME!"

This is a situation where my opinion would be greatly influenced by when this student first brought up the constraints of her work situation.

That's true, although I think meetings fall in a different category than other class obligations. A student signs up for my class times, but they aren't signing up to be available for my office hours. First of all, they might have other classes during those times, or other responsibilities they can't simply shift. The student does seem like a bit much, but I think the reason she's pissed is because the instructor is insisting that the class should take priority over everything else in her life.

That's not actually a reasonable expectation. If a student told me they could only meet with me from 5-9 PM, I'd probably tell them I can't do that. I have to pick up my kid from school, come home, make dinner and put the kid to bed. I'm generally pretty available to meet with students on my non teaching days, but on any particular day at any particular time, I might be planning something that makes it impossible for me to meet with a student. On Friday afternoon, a friend is coming to visit from out of town and I'm picking them up at the airport. I have a paper due at the end of the day on Friday. If a student is panicking and wants to meet with me over Zoom on Friday, I'm going to tell them I can't do it. (Honestly, I'd probably just say they can have an extension and I'll meet with them Monday) Am I prioritizing my social life over my teaching? That would be a weird way to think about it. It's similarly weird to tell a student she has bad priorities because she can't make a meeting at some particular time because of her job.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I find Zoom a thoroughly unsatisfactory method of communication, and I won't use it for office hours. I will, however, happily talk on the telephone with students if they cannot come to my office. And if a student cannot come to my office hours, I will try to find another mutually convenient time or method to meet with them.

I always do office hours on Zoom. One of the few things to come out of the pandemic is the realization that most meetings needn't drag me into the office.

I don't see how telephone would be easier to communicate through than Zoom. audio vs. audio + video with option to record and share screen, but to each their own.

[Puget]

It's standard practice here (and I would think almost everywhere) for office hours to be X times AND by appointment. It is simply impossible to set office hours for times where no student will have other classes, never mind other obligations, at those times. If a student says they can't come to office hours, I simply have them send a list of all their available times during business hours, and pick a time that works for me from that. Truly, not a big deal and just part of the job. Zoom is also fine-- it often makes more sense for quick questions, and lets them fit it in between other classes etc.

[jerseyjay]

There is not enough information on the Tik-Tok video to make a judgement on the situation. It is mainly the student ranting about the professor. We have to take the student's word for what happened, and based on my experience, I am not willing to do that. But even if the student is telling the truth, we don't know various things. For example, it makes a difference whether the professor is a tenured full-time professor who refused to meet with the student, or an adjunct who is only there once a week. It also makes a difference whether the student suddenly decided they wanted feedback two days before the paper was due, or some weeks in advance. And did the professor say the paper had to be turned in on a Tuesday night for a Monday course, or that the paper was due BY Tuesday night (when the semester ends) and the student could have turned it in on Monday night as well. I just don't know, and the video doesn't say.

All that said, it is always good to try to find a mutual agreeable time to meet if the office hours don't work. However, if the professor is an adjunct who won't get paid to come in another time, the window might be small. Which, again, is why modern telecommunications technology is useful. Although, when I was teaching six different courses at three different schools, I didn't have much time to dedicate to scheduling meetings outside of the one office hour each school paid me for.

Why I hate Zoom: I find the lag between audio and visual disconcerting, and it reminds me of a badly dubbed movie. I also do not like the fact that in Zoom I end up staring at a picture of myself. Having a Zoom appointment means that I have to bring my computer with me and find wifi, as opposed to just bring my mobile phone. Of course tastes vary, but my main point is that there should be some flexibility to talk with students outside regular in-person office hours.

[Caracal]

All that said, it is always good to try to find a mutual agreeable time to meet if the office hours don't work. However, if the professor is an adjunct who won't get paid to come in another time, the window might be small. Which, again, is why modern telecommunications technology is useful. Although, when I was teaching six different courses at three different schools, I didn't have much time to dedicate to scheduling meetings outside of the one office hour each school paid me for.

Yeah, I only come in on my teaching days and there's usually only an hour or two where I'm not teaching during the day, so I don't have much flexibility for in person meetings but its easy enough to meet with students over Zoom (or the phone) on the non teaching days. And, yes, of course the student might well be mischaracterizing the whole situation..

[apl68]

So, has anybody yet posted on the "Head/Desk" thread about having a difficult student who posted a one-sided rant on TikTok?

[dismalist]

I chewed over this a long time. I tended to agree with posters who would give the kid a break, given what the kid has told us.

Now I have found the reason for my queasiness:  I work full-time.

Kid, go to a college that specializes in dealing with people who work full time.

I worked at college, too. Weekends and fulltime+ during summers. College was much too interesting to sacrifice attendance time to time at work, or sacrifice future money  income for present money income. That's what we have loans for.

The kid wants it all, now.