Effect of rural college closing

[spork]

[. . .]

Those online courses from larger universities are not competing with MITs of the world.

[. . .]

Probably a good thing, because they can't. Back in June 2020, MIT's president sent out a letter about the plan for the fall semester — "Everything that can be taught effectively online will be taught online" (italics original).

That said, I'll hazard a guess that Georgia Tech's or Tuft's online master's program in data science is as good if not better than USC's on-campus equivalent, with the added benefit of not having to be in close proximity to the children of Hollywood celebrities pretending to row crew -- or as the gals at Wellesley used to say about the Harvard team, eight men and their tiny cox.

Still waiting to hear which thousands of fora members are casting for their separate backyard productions of Othello instead of watching the 1965 production with Sir Laurence Olivier for free on YouTube.

[dismalist]

[. . .]

Those online courses from larger universities are not competing with MITs of the world.

[. . .]

Probably a good thing, because they can't. Back in June 2020, MIT's president sent out a letter about the plan for the fall semester — "Everything that can be taught effectively online will be taught online" (italics original).

That said, I'll hazard a guess that Georgia Tech's or Tuft's online master's program in data science is as good if not better than USC's on-campus equivalent, with the added benefit of not having to be in close proximity to the children of Hollywood celebrities pretending to row crew -- or as the gals at Wellesley used to say about the Harvard team, eight men and their tiny cox.

Still waiting to hear which thousands of fora members are casting for their separate backyard productions of Othello instead of watching the 1965 production with Sir Laurence Olivier for free on YouTube.

Speaking of MIT, the university has made available videos of its classes with lag three years. So, organized correctly, one could have a three year old MIT education or a current Timbuktu education. Just need someone to give out the degrees.

Zoom aside, the on-line technology isn't affecting the creation of knowledge. It can affect the dissemination of knowledge -- if allowed.

[selecter]

Two rural and two pretty-damn-rural colleges closed near me in '18-'19, and sadly I was working at one of them. All four towns suffered financially at the loss, and at least one pizza and beer place figured their own loss of business at six digits, annually. That seems nuts, but ... I don't know the pizza business at all. Nothing has come in since to revitalize the towns, and two of the four are just blips to the eye of all but the current residents. None of the towns did much to help the schools while they were open (the indifference was pretty mutual) and by the time the losses had been calculated, the colleges were well shuttered ... desks auctioned, thoughtful editorials ... the whole bit. Everyone took everybody else for granted. Some more symbiotic work earlier could have turned the tide, I think.

Meanwhile, are students at ANY of your schools learning better online? I doubt it. Certainly it's worth the price when it's free ...

I've never been rowing ... but I'm gonna bet it's pretty fun, tiny cox and all. Are we saying that the only people that deserve real-life engagement and time to reflect are at Harvard and Wellesley?

[spork]

Online graduate courses compose half of my teaching load. The students are far, far more engaged academically than the undergrads taking my in-person courses. I suspect there are plenty of undergrads in the USA who academically perform equally well in online and face-to-face environments. There are many who probably perform better online. But learning isn't the product being sold by many of the small rural colleges. The product is the experience, which gets very, very expensive without sufficient economies of scale.

[marshwiggle]

The idea that a university would produce sufficient positive externalities locally to bring riches and expansion to small locales is widespread and deeply misguided. The people that universities train are mobile. No need for them to stay local.

It brings well-paid professors.

Only if the institution is financially solid enough to offer those good salaries. A place that's on the ropes won't be.

Young adults with parent's credit cards who like affordable restaurants and bars. Hotels where parents can stay and visit. Maybe cultural attractions such as museums related to the college.

These all assume that the place will draw students from elsewhere. With a gazillion similar places around, in addition to big places in cities, the competition for a dwindling student population due to demographics mean the competition will be fierce, and many places will lose and close.

The demographic issue is the oncoming freight train that cannot be avoided.

[kaysixteen]

Hmmm... by mid-2023, we more or less have all the data needed to conclude that going to ol instruction k12 during the pandemic was educationally disastrous.   What do stats for undergrad (and for that matter grad and professional) ed show?

[spork]

Hmmm... by mid-2023, we more or less have all the data needed to conclude that going to ol instruction k12 during the pandemic was educationally disastrous.   What do stats for undergrad (and for that matter grad and professional) ed show?

Far more scientific to look at stats on online vs. in-person instruction over the last two to three decades. Covid was a one-off marked by people trying to do stuff they didn't know how to do.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_311.22.asp

[MarathonRunner]

Distance education existed long before the internet. Fully accredited university courses, offered via distance. The only difference now is that instead of being mailed books, course materials and assignments, and mailing them back, students can now receive and submit via the internet.

I know I'm not a typical student, since I just defended my PhD, but I did just as well in online courses during my undergrad and masters degrees, as I did in in-person courses. Most of the online courses still had in-person exams, but this was pre-COVID. We had to go to the university or an approved test centre to take the exams. When I was working in a different city, but taking a course online, the local community college hosted the exam. Libraries would also proctor exams on occasion.

Some (maybe even most?) students do better in person, but there are some of us who succeed with online. I graduated at the top of my department's programs at my undergraduate university (not just my program, but all programs in our department), and won scholarships for academic excellence during my masters, so clearly taking online courses wasn't an issue for me. Even some of my PhD coursework was offered online (and some in person, pre-pandemic). Of course, Canada and how university are accredited is different from the US. I'm in a professional field with an external accreditor, and all my degrees, even when they've included online courses, have been accredited.

[kaysixteen]

OK, but looking at the experiences of PhD candidates vs Joe Average American Freshmen, well, there is no comparison to be made.

[marshwiggle]

OK, but looking at the experiences of PhD candidates vs Joe Average American Freshmen, well, there is no comparison to be made.

Probably few would argue with, and research supports that, in-person with a great teacher is about as good as it gets. However, except in Lake Wobegon, half of the teachers are below average. An online course carefully prepared by a great instructor will probably be as good or better than an in-person course delivered by a mediocre (or worse) instructor. On that basis, online learning is here to stay, and will have definite areas where it will work well.

[bio-nonymous]

OK, but looking at the experiences of PhD candidates vs Joe Average American Freshmen, well, there is no comparison to be made.

To me the main issue is that online students for the most part need to have stronger internal drive to learn and possess good time management skills. Some students seem to be able to do well in that environment of online asynchronous classes, whereas some might do better when they are somewhat "held accountable" by having to show up for class. I think well-done asynchronous content allows freedom for the students to engage with the material at their own pace and helps with internalizing the content. However, I personally detest synchronous online classes, but that is my pet peeve--I think it has the worst elements from in-person and online mashed up together. I think it is hard enough to keep some students engaged when they are sitting in the room, much less if they are at home on the couch with their laptop... Plus I personally don't like teaching to an "empty room".

However, in the case of graduate students (MS or PhD), I think the internal motivation is definitely there so they should be able to thrive in whatever format. The typically smaller class sizes could facilitate successful synchronous learning with many active learning techniques being employable even, which I feel is lacking in a large "lecture hall" type of online format (or in-person for that matter!).

IDK, the covid experiment of shifting everything online, at once, put a sour taste for the format for some...

[spork]

https://www.marketplace.org/2023/06/01/as-enrollments-dwindle-and-colleges-close-towns-hope-developers-will-revive-abandoned-campuses/

[Wahoo Redux]

https://www.marketplace.org/2023/06/01/as-enrollments-dwindle-and-colleges-close-towns-hope-developers-will-revive-abandoned-campuses/

The Everett Mansion is probably unique as a campus that can be repurposed. I do know that the Catholic Sisters are trying to turn the former Marylhurst campus into houses for the homeless in Oregon----we'll see how that goes.  Most I think just go derelict:

https://www.lostcolleges.com/deserted-campuses

[selecter]

My own Super Dinky is very photogenic, and has finally hit the big time with a spot on Marketplace. It'll make a great resort someday. With earlier interaction with the town, it would still be a college.

[marshwiggle]

My own Super Dinky is very photogenic, and has finally hit the big time with a spot on Marketplace. It'll make a great resort someday. With earlier interaction with the town, it would still be a college.

It would be ironic if some of these places provided more economic value to the community as resorts than they did as colleges.