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NYTimes Magazine: Americans Losing Faith in College

Started by Wahoo Redux, September 05, 2023, 08:02:48 AM

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ciao_yall

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 08:06:33 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on September 07, 2023, 07:55:34 AMI don't think you can just take the one "college educated/not college educated" shift from the Obama years to the Trump years, with no further demographic analysis, and conclude that what we see now was "sudden." I suspect that those groups were *not* all the same people, same racial grouping, gender, etc.


True, but the segment of voters who actually voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016 did not likely vote for Trump because of racism; pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best.

There were very few Obama 2012-Trump 2016 voters.

marshwiggle

Quote from: ciao_yall on September 07, 2023, 08:28:31 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 08:06:33 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on September 07, 2023, 07:55:34 AMI don't think you can just take the one "college educated/not college educated" shift from the Obama years to the Trump years, with no further demographic analysis, and conclude that what we see now was "sudden." I suspect that those groups were *not* all the same people, same racial grouping, gender, etc.


True, but the segment of voters who actually voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016 did not likely vote for Trump because of racism; pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best.

There were very few Obama 2012-Trump 2016 voters.

Even if you were going to argue that many stayed home in 2012, and voted for Trump in 2016, it's hard to imagine that "racism" made the difference; in 2012 they should have been more motivated to vote for Romney.
It takes so little to be above average.

larix

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 07:38:41 AMOne difference is that, in Canada, "going to university" doesn't mean the same as "going to college" in the US. People apply to specific programs, and are accepted (or not) into those programs. So there's not the same vague idea of "The Experience(TM)" as an end in itself. Students go specifically to study what they have decided on.

A very big cultural difference.


Not sure that I would agree with that. I am from Canada and did my undergrad there. I did not apply to a specific program. I knew that I wanted to do STEM (I thought science was interesting) and 4 of the 5 uni's I applied to required me to declare a major but I picked because I had to and selected based on what I knew. I changed major at the end of my first year because I took a course in an area that wasn't available in high school. Many of my friends had the same experience. When I taught at a Canadian University as a professor I noticed that there were many students that were taking classes as a way to explore what it was they wanted to do.

Many students and departments were also starting to focus on "what skills get students good jobs." Since I moved to the US it feels more and more to me like we are on a path to becoming vocational schools.

So I still am curious if the same drivers exist but it has less to do with the rising costs of education and more to do with the fact that the costs of everything else that used to allow folks to build wealth has also been increasing. And that is the same no matter which country you live in.

marshwiggle

Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 07:38:41 AMOne difference is that, in Canada, "going to university" doesn't mean the same as "going to college" in the US. People apply to specific programs, and are accepted (or not) into those programs. So there's not the same vague idea of "The Experience(TM)" as an end in itself. Students go specifically to study what they have decided on.

A very big cultural difference.


Not sure that I would agree with that. I am from Canada and did my undergrad there. I did not apply to a specific program. I knew that I wanted to do STEM (I thought science was interesting) and 4 of the 5 uni's I applied to required me to declare a major but I picked because I had to and selected based on what I knew. I changed major at the end of my first year because I took a course in an area that wasn't available in high school. Many of my friends had the same experience.

Changing majors is very different from not being in one to start. Among other things, it means the course sequence for each major explicitly starts in first year, without the "gen ed" stuff in the U.S.

It's much more focused on "hitting the ground running".

It takes so little to be above average.

Wahoo Redux

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 08:06:33 AM
Quote from: Ruralguy on September 07, 2023, 07:55:34 AMI don't think you can just take the one "college educated/not college educated" shift from the Obama years to the Trump years, with no further demographic analysis, and conclude that what we see now was "sudden." I suspect that those groups were *not* all the same people, same racial grouping, gender, etc.


True, but the segment of voters who actually voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016 did not likely vote for Trump because of racism; pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best.


Well...we do see a very public resurgence of hardcore hate groups specifically sporting Trump and DeSantis material. 

And Trump has used "immigration" as a rallying point quite a bit.
Come, fill the Cup, and in the fire of Spring
Your Winter-garment of Repentance fling:
The Bird of Time has but a little way
To flutter--and the Bird is on the Wing.

larix

#20
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 07:38:41 AMOne difference is that, in Canada, "going to university" doesn't mean the same as "going to college" in the US. People apply to specific programs, and are accepted (or not) into those programs. So there's not the same vague idea of "The Experience(TM)" as an end in itself. Students go specifically to study what they have decided on.

A very big cultural difference.


Not sure that I would agree with that. I am from Canada and did my undergrad there. I did not apply to a specific program. I knew that I wanted to do STEM (I thought science was interesting) and 4 of the 5 uni's I applied to required me to declare a major but I picked because I had to and selected based on what I knew. I changed major at the end of my first year because I took a course in an area that wasn't available in high school. Many of my friends had the same experience.

Changing majors is very different from not being in one to start. Among other things, it means the course sequence for each major explicitly starts in first year, without the "gen ed" stuff in the U.S.

It's much more focused on "hitting the ground running".



I think you also missed where I said 4 of 5 universities I applied to required me to declare a major the 4th did not meaning I didn't have to decide right away.

I also did have "gen ed" requirements. That was why I took the class that caused me to change majors in the first place. I had to take an approved writing course, I also had requirements for humanities classes and life and physical sciences. Also my university offered a general science program where if you didn't pick a major you received a sampling of all of the science courses offered. If you went to a rural high school like I did it also was novel to see all sorts of options for science other than just Biology, Chemistry or Physics. So it would have been hard to hit the ground running if one decided to major in Geology, Psychology or Environmental Science.

There are differences for sure but the Canadian system is certainly not as focused on studying what you specifically went there for as say the British or French system. The exception could be Quebec where CEGEP gives you the chance to explore so that then when you enroll in university you do already know what you want to study.

Though this is a digression from the main discussion. This article at least hints at similar things in Canada, though it is less focused on the value proposition and cost-benefit analysis. https://www.universityaffairs.ca/opinion/from-the-admin-chair/canadian-higher-education-at-a-crossroads/

marshwiggle

Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 07:38:41 AMOne difference is that, in Canada, "going to university" doesn't mean the same as "going to college" in the US. People apply to specific programs, and are accepted (or not) into those programs. So there's not the same vague idea of "The Experience(TM)" as an end in itself. Students go specifically to study what they have decided on.

A very big cultural difference.


Not sure that I would agree with that. I am from Canada and did my undergrad there. I did not apply to a specific program. I knew that I wanted to do STEM (I thought science was interesting) and 4 of the 5 uni's I applied to required me to declare a major but I picked because I had to and selected based on what I knew. I changed major at the end of my first year because I took a course in an area that wasn't available in high school. Many of my friends had the same experience.

Changing majors is very different from not being in one to start. Among other things, it means the course sequence for each major explicitly starts in first year, without the "gen ed" stuff in the U.S.

It's much more focused on "hitting the ground running".



I think you also missed where I said 4 of 5 universities I applied to required me to declare a major the 4th did not meaning I didn't have to decide right away.



But even that illustrates the differences between Canada and the US. You were looking at places based on programs and requirements, rather than "experience" like climbing walls and extracurricular activities. Especially with so many tiny places in the U.S., where the options will be very limited, the sales pitch isn't based on the specifics of what people want to study, but on lifestyle.

It takes so little to be above average.

Langue_doc

A related article in the Chronicle--probably behind a paywall, but if you register for an account as I did, you would get four free articles a month.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/what-the-public-really-thinks-about-higher-education?cid=gen_sign_in

The first few paragraphs:
QuoteAmericans today believe in the value of a college credential, but they aren't convinced higher education is fulfilling its promise to society.

That ambivalence toward colleges — general support with some real caveats — infused responses to a national poll by The Chronicle to gauge public perceptions of higher education. The goal was to probe attitudes about the value of a degree and, beyond educating individual students, institutions' broader activities and goals. This is the first of several stories that will explore the poll's findings and the issues they raise.

Most people, whether they have a four-year degree or not, would advise others to pursue one, our poll found. Yet many don't think institutions do a great job educating their students — or that they are of great benefit to graduates. Alternatives like trade school strike many Americans as just as good a path to a successful livelihood. And colleges' value to communities and to society also draws skepticism.

Higher Ed's Public-Perception Puzzle

This project will examine higher ed's public-perception problem — and the solutions to it — in our reporting and in an independent national survey conducted by The Chronicle with Langer Research Associates. The survey's aim is to add depth and nuance to the growing body of research on how people perceive higher ed.

Growing dissatisfaction with higher education has been a common concern in recent years, as some polls sound a drumbeat of doom — that confidence is falling, that institutions are moving in the wrong direction, that more people think they have a negative effect on the nation.

At the same time, conservative politicians have heightened attacks on colleges, claiming that institutions further progressive agendas and indoctrinate students. Many Democrats still voice support for higher education, though often with demands to improve graduation rates and limit student debt.

Caught in the middle, college leaders are under pressure to defend their institutions' value, and often argue that wide access to higher education is essential to the nation's civic and economic fortunes.

Respondents to The Chronicle's survey do reflect partisan divides. On many counts, Republicans and conservatives express deep reservations about higher education, while Democrats and liberals are mostly supportive.

But taken as a whole, the survey draws an important distinction: People view higher education as an important means for individual attainment, but not necessarily for the greater good.

Those who are reaping the financial rewards of their own degree say the benefits outweigh the costs. Nearly 80 percent of people with a college degree say the cost is worth it. That figure climbs to 88 percent of higher earners, those with a household income greater than $100,000, and drops to 63 percent among graduates with a household income less than $50,000. The results are from a representative, random-sample survey of 1,025 adults produced by Langer Research Associates via the SSRS Opinion Panel.


Over all, respondents gave higher education middling grades on how well it was spreading that benefit around. Less than a third of people think colleges are doing an excellent or very good job of leveling the playing field for success in society. A similar share say colleges are falling short on that measure.

The Advice Is to Go
Most reassuring for colleges, perhaps, is the finding that 78 percent of respondents would recommend that a close friend or relative pursue a bachelor's degree.

That figure includes an overwhelming share, 75 percent, of respondents who have not earned a college credential and well over half, 57 percent, of those who said their own associate or bachelor's degree hadn't been worth it.


In open-ended comments, respondents who would advise trying for a four-year degree cited improved career prospects, as well as the added benefit of a broader worldview.

"Bachelor's degrees are almost mandatory for higher-paying jobs," one said. "College also exposes you to people different from where you grew up," said another. "It helps you figure out who you are and who you want to be." Preparation for work and life was a common theme: "Achieving a bachelor's degree demonstrates the ability to set and achieve goals," a respondent wrote, "to persevere toward goals, to manage your time productively, to work with teams and to face and overcome problems."

Many people qualified their advice on attending college, noting that students should choose a course of study that warrants the time and money required.

Despite a chorus of prominent voices that espouse college for all, enrolling isn't a prerequisite for a successful career or life, said Richard Davenport, 45, a Lutheran pastor in Fort Smith, Ark., with a doctoral degree from Concordia Seminary in St. Louis. "It depends on what degree they are seeking," he responded on the survey.

larix

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 08, 2023, 05:44:25 AM
Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 10:13:45 PM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 09:17:40 AM
Quote from: larix on September 07, 2023, 08:50:38 AM
Quote from: marshwiggle on September 07, 2023, 07:38:41 AMOne difference is that, in Canada, "going to university" doesn't mean the same as "going to college" in the US. People apply to specific programs, and are accepted (or not) into those programs. So there's not the same vague idea of "The Experience(TM)" as an end in itself. Students go specifically to study what they have decided on.

A very big cultural difference.


Not sure that I would agree with that. I am from Canada and did my undergrad there. I did not apply to a specific program. I knew that I wanted to do STEM (I thought science was interesting) and 4 of the 5 uni's I applied to required me to declare a major but I picked because I had to and selected based on what I knew. I changed major at the end of my first year because I took a course in an area that wasn't available in high school. Many of my friends had the same experience.

Changing majors is very different from not being in one to start. Among other things, it means the course sequence for each major explicitly starts in first year, without the "gen ed" stuff in the U.S.

It's much more focused on "hitting the ground running".



I think you also missed where I said 4 of 5 universities I applied to required me to declare a major the 4th did not meaning I didn't have to decide right away.



But even that illustrates the differences between Canada and the US. You were looking at places based on programs and requirements, rather than "experience" like climbing walls and extracurricular activities. Especially with so many tiny places in the U.S., where the options will be very limited, the sales pitch isn't based on the specifics of what people want to study, but on lifestyle.



Except I wasn't. I didn't even think about what to pick as a major until I learned I had to put something down on the application. I was looking at universities that were either close to where I lived (the affordable option) or were in a location so different from where I grew up that I could have a new experience by going there and living someplace different. I ended up staying close to home because I could live at home and save money.

The place I work at now in the US enrolls many students who want to stay in state and/or stay close to home for similar reasons, because it is cheap. I know in our ongoing discussions about recruitment there is much talk about student's looking for specific programs that they can see a pathway to a career. 

Where I think the difference in terms of selling an experience comes up is maybe only in the sense that in Canada there is only one private University (Quest) which definitely does sell the experience, whereas in the US many of the smaller private schools work hard to sell the experience as a way to get students to go there rather than attend the bigger cheaper public closer to their homes. I see your point there but if you are comparing state schools in the US to Uni's in Canada I think the difference is a lot smaller than you think.

marshwiggle

Quote from: larix on September 08, 2023, 11:12:20 PMWhere I think the difference in terms of selling an experience comes up is maybe only in the sense that in Canada there is only one private University (Quest) which definitely does sell the experience, whereas in the US many of the smaller private schools work hard to sell the experience as a way to get students to go there rather than attend the bigger cheaper public closer to their homes. I see your point there but if you are comparing state schools in the US to Uni's in Canada I think the difference is a lot smaller than you think.

Since you've experienced both, you may be able to illuminate something that I've wondered about for a long time. With the required gen. ed. courses, and not declaring a major until second year, how do programs with courses that have to follow a sequence work? (For instance, in STEM where a 4th year course has a 3rd year prerequisite which has a 2nd year prerequisite?) Do programs in the U.S, have fewer required courses than Canadian ones, or are more of the 4th year courses required in the U.S. as compared to Canada? It seems that the U.S. system is likely to have many students needing to "catch up" once they declare a major compared to students that had selected one when they applied and thus took all of the required courses in 1st year.


It takes so little to be above average.

mythbuster

Marshwiggle, in the US, students who are aiming at programs like you describe (e.g. engineering) usually start out in those programs from day one. At my alma mater the engineering college had their own admissions standards and processes. It was rare for anyone to switch into the engineering program, although there were many more who would switch out. I had a friend at alma mater who switched into engineering in the middle of her sophomore year. Yes she had to "catch up" by taking some courses over a summer or two but she did ultimately graduate at the 4 year mark. Given that she now has a PhD in EE, it worked out well for her!

marshwiggle

Quote from: mythbuster on September 10, 2023, 02:58:03 PMMarshwiggle, in the US, students who are aiming at programs like you describe (e.g. engineering) usually start out in those programs from day one. At my alma mater the engineering college had their own admissions standards and processes. It was rare for anyone to switch into the engineering program, although there were many more who would switch out. I had a friend at alma mater who switched into engineering in the middle of her sophomore year. Yes she had to "catch up" by taking some courses over a summer or two but she did ultimately graduate at the 4 year mark. Given that she now has a PhD in EE, it worked out well for her!

Ok, thanks for the clarification. What happens to gen eds in those programs? Do they typically just get worked in wherever they'll fit?
It takes so little to be above average.

mythbuster

Engineers don't complete nearly as many Gen Eds as College of Arts and Science students. It might bee 2-3 courses total through the entire program. Hence the reputation that Engineers can't write.

Most Engineering programs of study will have designated slots in specific semesters where the Gen Eds will fit in.

FishProf

Quote from: mythbuster on September 11, 2023, 08:26:41 AMMost Engineering programs of study will have designated slots in specific semesters where the Gen Eds will fit in.

And many such programs have specified GenEds their majors take.  There are good and bad aspects to that narrow tracking.
It's difficult to conclude what people really think when they reason from misinformation.

larix

Quote from: marshwiggle on September 10, 2023, 12:44:20 PM
Quote from: larix on September 08, 2023, 11:12:20 PMWhere I think the difference in terms of selling an experience comes up is maybe only in the sense that in Canada there is only one private University (Quest) which definitely does sell the experience, whereas in the US many of the smaller private schools work hard to sell the experience as a way to get students to go there rather than attend the bigger cheaper public closer to their homes. I see your point there but if you are comparing state schools in the US to Uni's in Canada I think the difference is a lot smaller than you think.

Since you've experienced both, you may be able to illuminate something that I've wondered about for a long time. With the required gen. ed. courses, and not declaring a major until second year, how do programs with courses that have to follow a sequence work? (For instance, in STEM where a 4th year course has a 3rd year prerequisite which has a 2nd year prerequisite?) Do programs in the U.S, have fewer required courses than Canadian ones, or are more of the 4th year courses required in the U.S. as compared to Canada? It seems that the U.S. system is likely to have many students needing to "catch up" once they declare a major compared to students that had selected one when they applied and thus took all of the required courses in 1st year.




Not every US school has a completely undeclared first year. At my current institution for example students do declare a major their first year and there are very few separate Gen. Ed. only courses. In my department for example although our first year courses count towards the "science with lab" Gen. Ed. requirement they are the same first year course that our majors take. The only Gen Ed. specific courses at my institute are a couple Humanities courses that everyone must take. Everything else is set up as pick lists of lower division courses from different programs.

Just like the Canadian system can differ from institution to institution so too can the US system.