first name basis

[kaysixteen]

So am I getting old?  I should like to solicit some opinionating on the question of who amongst you, being 40+, and esp 50+ (I am 55), just does not want to be addressed by their first names, esp by clerks, secretaries in doc's offices, etc., OR by now-grown former students?  Whatever the rep of Massachusetts for progressive political views, the culture here has always been noticeably more hierarchical than the Midwest, Appalachia, the West, etc., and I was quite frankly raised with the Miss Manners view of when a young adult gets to start calling a vet adult whom he had grown up using titles with, by his first names-- her view is clear, namely that the young adult needs to continue to title the older person until invited to use a first name, cannot ask for such an invitation, and cannot become peeved if no such invite is ever forthcoming. 

[Caracal]

So am I getting old?  I should like to solicit some opinionating on the question of who amongst you, being 40+, and esp 50+ (I am 55), just does not want to be addressed by their first names, esp by clerks, secretaries in doc's offices, etc., OR by now-grown former students?   Whatever the rep of Massachusetts for progressive political views, the culture here has always been noticeably more hierarchical than the Midwest, Appalachia, the West, etc., and I was quite frankly raised with the Miss Manners view of when a young adult gets to start calling a vet adult whom he had grown up using titles with, by his first names-- her view is clear, namely that the young adult needs to continue to title the older person until invited to use a first name, cannot ask for such an invitation, and cannot become peeved if no such invite is ever forthcoming.   

I would say you can ask to be called whatever you like. You'll probably do better if you correct it in the same way that you would correct someone who was mispronouncing your name-you're not issuing a rebuke, you are just assuming that the person would like to address you correctly but doesn't know your preferences.

[Hegemony]

The culture on this has changed, so I think if you find yourself irked that people keep doing it, you will keep finding yourself irked. It's one of those rules that no one else has any more, like insisting that "decimate" can only be used to indicate that one-tenth of something has been destroyed. There are some underlying assumptions there that I think no longer hold, such as that using a title indicates respect (you can see that that's not always true by the way the New York Times refers to murderers by title, e.g. "Mr. Manson," "Mr. Bundy," and so on), and that concomitantly failing to use a title indicates lack of respect, etc. Or that there are universals in polite behavior, regardless of social norms.

Of course some people do enjoy being irked. Indeed I think some of us have an underlying feeling that "Everything is wrong," and look for things to attach it to. One acquaintance of mine is infuriated whenever he sees a hyphen used when it properly should be an n-dash. One of my professors fulminated on every possible occasion about the use of "since" to mean "because." A friend insists that playing music in cars is a barbarian practice. And so on. Of course I have my own private opinions about which contemporary habits are egregious. I think for the sake of one's blood pressure, it's best to try to accept that things are the way they are, and in the monstrous heap of things wrong with the world, these are not really very important.

[little bongo]

My attitude toward first names stems from this exchange in "Citizen Kane":

Walter Parks Thatcher: You're too old to be calling me Mr. Thatcher.
Kane: You're too old to be called anything else.

[apl68]

My attitude toward first names stems from this exchange in "Citizen Kane":

Walter Parks Thatcher: You're too old to be calling me Mr. Thatcher.
Kane: You're too old to be called anything else.

Where I live, there's a longstanding tendency to address people of a certain age as Mr./Miss [first name.]  It's understood to be the respectful way to address elders.  I'm now increasingly being addressed as Mr. [first name.]  Which I guess tells me something about how others are coming to perceive me as I move into late middle age.  I'm fine with it.

We've all got pet linguistic peeves.  I have a good number of my own that I won't get into here.  I try not to let myself get annoyed at all of them, or correct people over them.  Better to save that sort of thing for substantive issues where registering disagreement really matters.  Contemporary society is already too full of people who scold and hector everybody in sight to want to join in their number.

[Puget]

I would find it weird for anyone other than an undergraduate to call me by my last name, and even with them I don't really care. Then again, I do originate from the Wild West.

[waterboy]

The older I get, the less I can if someone uses "Dr." or "Professor".  Just show up to class and pay attention.

[Sun_Worshiper]

The older I get, the less I can if someone uses "Dr." or "Professor".  Just show up to class and pay attention.

I cared more as a young professor, not so much because I wanted students to show me respect, but rather because I was not that much older than them and I wanted to create distance. Now that I'm older (not old, mind you!) and tenured I don't care at all, although my department is pretty formal about these things and students rarely, if ever, call me by my first name - some staff even call me Dr. Sun_Worshiper, even when I tell them it is fine to just call me by my first name.

[dismalist]

Students would occasionally ask me publicly, say from when I was 40, how they should address me. I never liked being addressed by my first name. So I would respond: Call me Dismalist! Just last name; no regalia.

[Wahoo Redux]

the young adult needs to continue to title the older person until invited to use a first name, cannot ask for such an invitation, and cannot become peeved if no such invite is ever forthcoming.

You and I are within two years of the same age, and yet you remind me of my parents, both of whom were born in the 1930s. They both took issue with this particular social construct and would agree with you.  Interesting.

The thing of it is, you can't enforce this anyplace but in the classroom or, if you are the boss, at the office.  You cannot force someone to use a title, and you cannot force them not to "become peeved" if you don't invite them to use your first name.  You have no real control over that----although, I imagine most people would honor your desire to be called "Dr. Sixteen" if you explained yourself.

Personally, I am a very informal person, and I've told my students from my first day of student teaching that I was fine if they called me by my first name----some academics resent this sort of informality in the classroom because they feel it weakens their own standing.  I don't buy it, but whatever.  The interesting thing is that students were comfortable calling me "Wahoo" and being basically chummy right up until I turned 40-ish, then I became "Dr. Redux" and students became much more respectful and formal.  I never discuss my age with students, so it wasn't anything I said, I think it was just the natural progression that changed students' approach to me.

My advice would be to let it go.  You can ask the kids to call you "Dr. Kay" or "Mr. 16," and they probably will, but things will be awkward from then on (and they will think you are "snooty").  It's just better to relax and think of anyone over the age of majority as an adult (and imagine the kids currently in the Marines or the Army Rangers---should they be diminished to calling you by a title?).

[Hegemony]

One further data point. I did a BA in the States, and all my profs were "Dr. Smith" or "Professor Smith." Then I went to do a second BA and subsequently a PhD at Oxbridge. There all my profs were "Malcolm" and "Jane" and so on to grad and undergrad alike.

[spork]

Old man yells at cloud. Film at 11.

[jerseyjay]

So am I getting old?  [....] I am 55[....]

To be honest, I am somewhat surprised by how young you are. I had envisioned you as being at least 70, based on this and previous posts. I think rather than old, you are actually old-fashioned. I do not mean this in a judgemental way--although I tend not to share many of your (in my view) somewhat stodgy perspectives of social interaction.



I admit I have some of my own. I think it is wrong to wear white shoes after labor day. I believe that handwritten notes should be written in cursive, preferably with a fountain pen. I believe that business letters (which I only in living memory stopped writing on IBM selectric and addressing to "Dear Sirs") should be signed in blue ink. I prefer to read a newspaper in printed form. I prefer to use a car with a standard transmission. I like to write checks to pay my bills and deposit my money at with a cashier inside a bank. I still use "whom" as accusative pronoun (and know what that means). Disinterested does not mean bored but without a material interest. I like to wear a watch even though I have a cell phone. &c &c.

At the same time, I realize that social norms do change (I have learnt to use "they" as a singular pronoun) and I generally have more important stuff to do than complain that it is no longer 1995 (or 1965). I also realize that sometimes social norms change for the better (see the disuse of "Dear Sirs").

In terms of names, my general view is that, based on travel in different countries, there is a wide variety of formality, and sometimes excess formality is perceived as just as rude as informality. In Spanish, the use of "usted" can be a sign of respect, or it can be seen as a sign of disrespect, depending on the country and the person. I would not even dare to figure out how to use second and third person in French, especially with women, based on what I learnt in my one semester of French. My Dean is friend and former member of my department, and so he knows that if I am referring to him as Dr. Dean, then I am either being facetious or I am angry at some official decision he has made (or writing an official letter).

On your specific question, it seems to me that there is now a general practice that anybody from about mid 20s through 60s (that is, from university graduation age through retirement age) is on a first-name basis in a professional situation except perhaps in formal situations. How to talk to children and elderly people depends on your relationship with them. I would not complain to anybody for a lack of respect, because that seems to be the quickest way to loose whatever respect you still have.

[RatGuy]

I find it jarring when someone with whom I'm not familiar uses my first name. But then again, I don't really like the sound of my first name itself. "It's not even a real name," according to one popular sitcom.

That said, most people struggle to pronounce my last name. They've likely never encountered someone with it either. So I assume that anyone who uses my first name decides to do so because they're afraid of mispronouncing my last name into something vulgar.

[apl68]

I find it jarring when someone with whom I'm not familiar uses my first name. But then again, I don't really like the sound of my first name itself. "It's not even a real name," according to one popular sitcom.

That said, most people struggle to pronounce my last name. They've likely never encountered someone with it either. So I assume that anyone who uses my first name decides to do so because they're afraid of mispronouncing my last name into something vulgar.

Sounds awkward. 

That's the nice thing about having a first and last name that are both very common.  There's little question on people's part about how your names are pronounced.  The down side is that there are lots of others that have your exact name, and you may occasionally be confused with them.  I have on a couple of occasions had to prove to officialdom that I was not somebody with the same name and date of birth who was in trouble with the law in another state!