MS auditor proposes defunding majors that "indoctrinate" students

[deepsouth]

Community colleges serve an important role in workforce development in MS. The state auditor seems to want to community college-ify the 4 years, too. With a dash of anti-wokeness added in.

https://www.osa.ms.gov/documents/Special_Reports/BrainDrainReportFinal.pdf

https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-college-majors-funding-cuts-aad5a0d5c7ab013d6c5489fd41e4dc54

[marshwiggle]

Community colleges serve an important role in workforce development in MS. The state auditor seems to want to community college-ify the 4 years, too. With a dash of anti-wokeness added in.

https://www.osa.ms.gov/documents/Special_Reports/BrainDrainReportFinal.pdf

https://apnews.com/article/mississippi-college-majors-funding-cuts-aad5a0d5c7ab013d6c5489fd41e4dc54

From the first article:

Many degree programs produced graduates who were not paid well and did not usually work in
Mississippi after leaving college. For example, Anthropology graduates earned nearly $17,000 less than
their peers. These graduates were also among the least likely to work in Mississippi. Sociology graduates
earned nearly $12,000 less than their peers, and few from the 2015-2017 graduation cohort actually
worked in Mississippi after college. Some programs—like Women's Studies, African-American/Black
Studies, German Language and Literature—placed so few graduates in Mississippi jobs that analysts could
not calculate a statistically significant median salary for those graduates. Yet the state invests just as much,
per student, in these programs as in Electrical Engineering or Registered Nurse programs.

This is about evidence, rather than "anti-wokeness"; i.e. ideology. If the government funds institutions based on their value to the workforce, (which is not a bad consideration), focusing funding on programs that actually achieve that makes sense. And if students incur debt, regardless of program, then it's really not doing students any favours to offer programs likely to leave them with debt and no employment.

[waterboy]

Are we only supposed to educate students that will stay in state? I wonder how many football players remained.

[Hibush]

Are we only supposed to educate students that will stay in state? I wonder how many football players remained.

Maybe the Women's Studies majors are working e.g. in investment banking in New York, so they don't count in the stats.

[deepsouth]

Has government funding of higher ed, shrinking as it is, really been based on the value to the workforce? Who decides what value is measured? Those two links show different rationales for the report, both from the auditor. One is about "brain drain" and workforce development. The other is about "indoctrination factories." Which is it?

[Hegemony]

Those two links show different rationales for the report, both from the auditor. One is about "brain drain" and workforce development. The other is about "indoctrination factories." Which is it?

I think they're the same thing. Community college is (the report assumes) valuable only in so far as it sends people into jobs that will boost the local economy and reduce the welfare rate. And nothing else. Extra thinking or questioning the system is to be unfunded.

[marshwiggle]

Those two links show different rationales for the report, both from the auditor. One is about "brain drain" and workforce development. The other is about "indoctrination factories." Which is it?

I think they're the same thing. Community college is (the report assumes) valuable only in so far as it sends people into jobs that will boost the local economy and reduce the welfare rate. And nothing else. Extra thinking or questioning the system is to be unfunded.

My understanding of the role of "community colleges" in the US is that this pretty much is their mandate, (i.e. more direct emphasis on the workforce than universities). If that is their mandate, then that has to be their focus. (It also makes their funding easier to justify. To change their mandate would also potentially undermine the justification for their funding.)

[Wahoo Redux]

Yet another indoctrinated conservative trying to rationalize the liberalizing currents of culture.

[Hegemony]

My understanding of the role of "community colleges" in the US is that this pretty much is their mandate, (i.e. more direct emphasis on the workforce than universities). If that is their mandate, then that has to be their focus. (It also makes their funding easier to justify. To change their mandate would also potentially undermine the justification for their funding.)

Their mandate is also — I gather from the way they are set up — to provide a low-cost, local pathway to students who want to attend one of the state's four-year universities. Ours are set up so that students who complete their A.A. degrees at the community college have all their gen-ed requirements and their first two years of a B.A. done, and they can transfer seamlessly to a four-year state university and complete their final two years. This requires that the community colleges offer the courses that fulfill the four-year universities' gen-ed requirements. Courses in auto mechanics, dental hygiene, and professional baking (all of which are offered by our local community college) would not transfer to the university. So if they offered only career-preparation courses, they would be useless to a number of their students.

[marshwiggle]

My understanding of the role of "community colleges" in the US is that this pretty much is their mandate, (i.e. more direct emphasis on the workforce than universities). If that is their mandate, then that has to be their focus. (It also makes their funding easier to justify. To change their mandate would also potentially undermine the justification for their funding.)

Their mandate is also — I gather from the way they are set up — to provide a low-cost, local pathway to students who want to attend one of the state's four-year universities. Ours are set up so that students who complete their A.A. degrees at the community college have all their gen-ed requirements and their first two years of a B.A. done, and they can transfer seamlessly to a four-year state university and complete their final two years. This requires that the community colleges offer the courses that fulfill the four-year universities' gen-ed requirements. Courses in auto mechanics, dental hygiene, and professional baking (all of which are offered by our local community college) would not transfer to the university. So if they offered only career-preparation courses, they would be useless to a number of their students.

I would guess that would mean they wouldn't have to offer majors in those gen ed subject areas, just the intro courses that would transfer.

[Wahoo Redux]

My understanding of the role of "community colleges" in the US is that this pretty much is their mandate, (i.e. more direct emphasis on the workforce than universities). If that is their mandate, then that has to be their focus. (It also makes their funding easier to justify. To change their mandate would also potentially undermine the justification for their funding.)

Their mandate is also — I gather from the way they are set up — to provide a low-cost, local pathway to students who want to attend one of the state's four-year universities. Ours are set up so that students who complete their A.A. degrees at the community college have all their gen-ed requirements and their first two years of a B.A. done, and they can transfer seamlessly to a four-year state university and complete their final two years. This requires that the community colleges offer the courses that fulfill the four-year universities' gen-ed requirements. Courses in auto mechanics, dental hygiene, and professional baking (all of which are offered by our local community college) would not transfer to the university. So if they offered only career-preparation courses, they would be useless to a number of their students.

I would guess that would mean they wouldn't have to offer majors in those gen ed subject areas, just the intro courses that would transfer.

This is the mission statement for CCs from the US Government website:

Missions and Program Mix Unifying community colleges is their common goal of providing broad access to postsecondary education. Virtually all have open admission policies that allow students to enroll regardless of their academic preparation and achievement, although not every student has access to all programs and courses. Most community colleges offer a wide range of programs and credentials. They aim to prepare students for either transfer to four-year institutions or immediate labor market opportunities. Other community needs and priorities also drive the creation of some programs. Some colleges devote considerable resources to offering programs that appeal to community members who view education as an end in itself rather than a means to an end. Many of these programs fall into the broad category of noncredit programs. Consistent national data are not collected on these programs, and they are something of a black box despite their wide reach. 

[deepsouth]

The proposal isn't limited to community colleges. It suggests remaking the university system in the image of the community college system.

The last paragraph of the report...

Reconfiguring the output of our universities could be accomplished by changing the way Mississippi funds its colleges. State appropriations should focus on the degree programs our state's economy values most. Otherwise, taxpayers will face the repercussions of an inadequate workforce and a declining population. The Legislature should create a study committee of workforce experts—like Texas did—to outline the most- and least-needed programs and design a university funding structure with this in mind

[Kron3007]

The irony of a state that pushes creationism in schools to be against indoctrination is rich. 

[jerseyjay]

It seems to me (based on having taught at various community colleges) that CCs serve several related but distinct purposes:

They serve as entry points for a university education for students who might not be prepared (financially, academically, etc) for immediate four-year university. In this sense, their academic curriculum should roughly be the equivalent of the first two years of a university. (That is, taking History 101 and History 201 at a community college should both provide credits that the university accepts, and prepare students to take History 301.)

The provide vocational training for local community members (e.g., welding) that would help students get jobs or better train for the jobs that they have. These classes do not prepare somebody for university study and their credits usually do not transfer.

They also provide academic courses for community members who are not trying to get a degree. This includes retired people who are taking a class for fun; working people taking a language course; people who already have a degree who are taking academic courses in preparation for another program elsewhere. (I know several people who have humanities degrees from university who have taken some math or science courses with the goal of entering a health-related field.)

[marshwiggle]

They also provide academic courses for community members who are not trying to get a degree. This includes retired people who are taking a class for fun; working people taking a language course; people who already have a degree who are taking academic courses in preparation for another program elsewhere. (I know several people who have humanities degrees from university who have taken some math or science courses with the goal of entering a health-related field.)

Based on this:

This is the mission statement for CCs from the US Government website:

Missions and Program Mix Unifying community colleges is their common goal of providing broad access to postsecondary education. Virtually all have open admission policies that allow students to enroll regardless of their academic preparation and achievement, although not every student has access to all programs and courses. Most community colleges offer a wide range of programs and credentials. They aim to prepare students for either transfer to four-year institutions or immediate labor market opportunities. Other community needs and priorities also drive the creation of some programs. Some colleges devote considerable resources to offering programs that appeal to community members who view education as an end in itself rather than a means to an end. Many of these programs fall into the broad category of noncredit programs. Consistent national data are not collected on these programs, and they are something of a black box despite their wide reach. 

If many of these "continuing education" programs are "noncredit", it would seem probably many of the individual courses are as well. If so, those might be very different from any university courses.