Dartmouth reinstates the SAT

[marshwiggle]

[. . .]

My broader point is to ask why throw away information.

Organizations will throw away information if doing so is in the incentive of the organizations' leaders.

I once witnessed an enrollment management VP claim that quality of applicants had increased over time because their average SAT scores had increased. He deliberately ignored the fact that the university had gone test-optional in the middle of his time series.

Because wishing will make it so!

[jimbogumbo]

dismalist, I'm going to push back some more. There IS research on different races and sexes. The SAT is actually not as good a predictor for students of color or young women. It under states their chance of success relative to what grades and type of courses taken successfully, which are more accurate predictors.

[marshwiggle]

dismalist, I'm going to push back some more. There IS research on different races and sexes. The SAT is actually not as good a predictor for students of color or young women. It under states their chance of success relative to what grades and type of courses taken successfully, which are more accurate predictors.

Is this mainly a reflection of more specific information? For instance, how a student did in calculus would probably be a better predictor of their performance in physics than their SAT math score, but for students who have never had a chance to take calculus, the SAT math score would be reasonable.

[dismalist]

dismalist, I'm going to push back some more. There IS research on different races and sexes. The SAT is actually not as good a predictor for students of color or young women. It under states their chance of success relative to what grades and type of courses taken successfully, which are more accurate predictors.

I must repeat, it's not an either/or decision. The point is that the SAT adds predictive power to the HS GPA.

Same with types of courses, which themselves add predictive power.

So, use all these criteria.

[kaysixteen]

The SAT is laden with problems, and likely always will be, but it is something that is the same for all kids who take it, whereas, like it or not, high school America is extremely diverse, and it is essentially just not possible to know what exactly any given grade, or even any given course title, means, across hss.

[TreadingLife]

The SAT is laden with problems, and likely always will be, but it is something that is the same for all kids who take it, whereas, like it or not, high school America is extremely diverse, and it is essentially just not possible to know what exactly any given grade, or even any given course title, means, across hss.

And increasingly at the college level as well, at least in the US.

[MarathonRunner]

As a Canadian, I really don't understand why the SAT is used or why it is so important. Canada's top universities have no problems finding and admitting students who are successful. Sure, some students fail or drop out, but how does a biased test tell you which students will succeed and which won't? There's a reason why there's a movement among Canadian medical schools to remove the MCAT as a requirement- a couple already only look at CARS or have a very low cutoff. Standardized tests tell you who is good at taking tests, and who has money and privilege. They tell you nothing about who might succeed or be effective in any given profession.

[Ruralguy]

The SAT has predictive power on who cam succeed in an academic setting. To the extent that there have been some studies that link SAT scores to intelligence quotients and all (though I think some of these are quite old and leave some questions to be answered), they probably have *some* predictive power for professional success, since that tends to correlate with conscientiousness. Of course that's just a hypothesis on my part, not knowing what actual literature shows, if anything. But I can see how there would be a relationship.

But, yes, the various biases are there, and the issue of test cost, and ability to pay for costly tutoring is all real. Its doesn't totally negate the finding that the SAT has predictive power, and its hard to believe that getting an A in History  at some high school  in Raleigh will EVER mean the same thing as one in Tallahasee. let alone mean for sure that the common meaning would correlate with college performance.

[kaysixteen]

How standardized is the quality of high school education across Canada?  IIRC, there are also very few private hss there?

[marshwiggle]

How standardized is the quality of high school education across Canada?  IIRC, there are also very few private hss there?

One example: In Ontario, the funding for school boards comes from the province, so every school gets the same amount per student. Thus, you don't get "rich" schools and "poor" schools based on the local tax base. That goes a long way to removing inequities.

[ciao_yall]

How standardized is the quality of high school education across Canada?  IIRC, there are also very few private hss there?

One example: In Ontario, the funding for school boards comes from the province, so every school gets the same amount per student. Thus, you don't get "rich" schools and "poor" schools based on the local tax base. That goes a long way to removing inequities.

In CA all the schools get the same amount as well.

But that means high cost of living areas (urban) struggle while lower cost of living areas (suburbs) do quite well.

Affluent areas also have their own local fundraising and foundations to supplement their public schools.

Some really affluent areas are allowed to opt out of the state funding system and fund their own schools with local property taxes. Or pass local tax supplements to support the schools.

So, equity schmequity.

[marshwiggle]

How standardized is the quality of high school education across Canada?  IIRC, there are also very few private hss there?

One example: In Ontario, the funding for school boards comes from the province, so every school gets the same amount per student. Thus, you don't get "rich" schools and "poor" schools based on the local tax base. That goes a long way to removing inequities.

In CA all the schools get the same amount as well.

But that means high cost of living areas (urban) struggle while lower cost of living areas (suburbs) do quite well.

Affluent areas also have their own local fundraising and foundations to supplement their public schools.

Some really affluent areas are allowed to opt out of the state funding system and fund their own schools with local property taxes. Or pass local tax supplements to support the schools.

So, equity schmequity.

Well, there's your problem.

[Hibush]

In CA all the schools get the same amount as well.

But that means high cost of living areas (urban) struggle while lower cost of living areas (suburbs) do quite well.

Affluent areas also have their own local fundraising and foundations to supplement their public schools.

Some really affluent areas are allowed to opt out of the state funding system and fund their own schools with local property taxes. Or pass local tax supplements to support the schools.

So, equity schmequity.

For Dartmouth, the distinction isn't so much between stronger and weaker public schools, it is between elite prep schools (e.g. Andover, Exeter, Sidwell) and elite public schools. The Dart Mouth published a piece on it. Prep schools supplied 34% of the Class of 2025.

[jimbogumbo]

This study is a better description than College Board statements. And before anyone slams me, I do indeed know that the ACT is not the SAT, nor even an ETS product.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success

[marshwiggle]

This study is a better description than College Board statements. And before anyone slams me, I do indeed know that the ACT is not the SAT, nor even an ETS product.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/test-scores-dont-stack-gpas-predicting-college-success

One thing to note:

They examined 55,084 students who graduated from Chicago Public Schools of varying academic profiles between 2006 and 2009, and who then immediately enrolled in a four-year college. At the time of the study, all Illinois students took the ACT in the spring of 11th grade.

So, in some important ways, it's a relatively homogeneous group. The value in using standardized test scores is greatest when there aren't other metrics that are consistent for the entire population.