IHE: Academic Freedom Battles Roil Indiana University

[Wahoo Redux]

So was society a much more hateful place a decade or so ago when there were neither rainbow crosswalks nor drag queen story time?

Yes.

Were all of those people marginalized until crosswalks were painted and story time was instituted?

Real questions?

These folks were marginalized in a lot of ways.

Crosswalks and story times are just examples which have come up on these threads.

Crosswalks and story times might be considered metonyms of hate.

Are drag queens only in "the public sphere" because of story time?

Are these actual questions, or are you looking for some kind of purchase on debate?  Because I do not think you are dense...but this is a silly question.

(For comparison, I don't think Christians are "banned from the public sphere" if they can't have a nativity display on public property, or anything like that. How a group is viewed by the rest of the public is very little influenced by any sort of government declaration or display.)

In the U.S. we have the Separation Clause because the Founders recognized the hegemonic tendencies of religious people.  They did not want a theocracy----which a lot of people still want.

However, Christians must be given Constitutional protection in public schools, and specifically Christians must be given access to libraries:

According to the American Library Association

Yes. Courts have consistently held that libraries may not exclude religious groups from their meeting rooms solely because the group is religious in character or because the meeting may include religious activities. American Library Association

I just want to see drag queens have the same protections as Christians.  It is only fair.

[apl68]

Really, Wahoo?  You really think that the only possible motive that anybody can have for opposing drag queen story hours at the public library is sheer, blind hatred?  It was not many years ago that drag shows were generally regarded as a form of adult entertainment.  There are many people who still consider them inappropriate for young children.  They consider a drag story time significantly threatening and objectionable--something that's far too edgy for a public library. 

If a significant portion of a community feels that way, then the library has to listen to them.  Otherwise the library is in danger of losing the support of that section of the community.  They may stop coming and bringing their children to the library, for fear of what the library will expose their children to next.  And before you say "good riddance," recall that the library is there to serve all segments of the public. If people who consider drag shows threatening to their children--and again, they're not few in number in many communities--are made to feel unwelcome in a library, then there's a segment of a community that is not being well-served.

Not hosting drag queen story times doesn't mean that a library has driven out its local LGBT community.  It still supplies them with materials--including materials that the library probably wouldn't have supplied them with not too many years ago.  They still get waited on just like everybody else.  They're simply going to have to find another venue for a particular type of event that another segment of the community finds greatly offensive and disturbing.  They're getting only a part of what they would ideally want.  So are those who disagree with their lifestyles.  They'd rather the library didn't stock certain materials in the first place, but it does.

I realize that's not a satisfying compromise, but any institution that tries to serve the general public in a deeply divided society has to make compromises.  It can't please everybody all the time.  Everybody has to be satisfied with less than a whole loaf some of the time.  These are very challenging compromises to negotiate, and I and my colleagues have to make tough choices.  We can't just write off whole segments of the publics we're here to serve as haters who don't deserve a hearing-out.

[Wahoo Redux]

Really, Wahoo?  You really think that the only possible motive that anybody can have for opposing drag queen story hours at the public library is sheer, blind hatred? 

Yes.

It can be sublimated in all sorts of ways----in fact, sublimated so deeply that people may not know that they are actually acting on it----but yeah, that about sums it up.

Good people too.

Although, I did not say "sheer, blind hatred," simply "hatred" (a very human reaction) which people are taught to hold as a moral right.

The rest of your rationalizing is part and parcel of this. 

[Wahoo Redux]

If people who consider drag shows African-Americans threatening to their children--and again, they're not few in number in many communities--are made to feel unwelcome in a library, then there's a segment of a community that is not being well-served.

What is the difference?

[marshwiggle]

So was society a much more hateful place a decade or so ago when there were neither rainbow crosswalks nor drag queen story time?

Yes.

Were all of those people marginalized until crosswalks were painted and story time was instituted?

Real questions?

These folks were marginalized in a lot of ways.

Crosswalks and story times are just examples which have come up on these threads.

Crosswalks and story times might be considered metonyms of hate.

Are drag queens only in "the public sphere" because of story time?

Are these actual questions, or are you looking for some kind of purchase on debate?  Because I do not think you are dense...but this is a silly question.

My point in both of these is that its highly unlikely that a significant change in public perception was caused by things like painting crosswalks. If anything, it may be that some people may be more unlikely to express their views because of them, but that's not the same thing.

(For comparison, I don't think Christians are "banned from the public sphere" if they can't have a nativity display on public property, or anything like that. How a group is viewed by the rest of the public is very little influenced by any sort of government declaration or display.)

In the U.S. we have the Separation Clause because the Founders recognized the hegemonic tendencies of religious people.  They did not want a theocracy----which a lot of people still want.

However, Christians must be given Constitutional protection in public schools, and specifically Christians must be given access to libraries:

According to the American Library Association

Yes. Courts have consistently held that libraries may not exclude religious groups from their meeting rooms solely because the group is religious in character or because the meeting may include religious activities. American Library Association

I just want to see drag queens have the same protections as Christians.  It is only fair.

The right to use a meeting room in a library is much different from the right to have an event in the main space of the library. I'm guessing the right to use a meeting room applies to all kinds of groups, not just religious ones. That doesn't mean they all, (or any of them, for that matter), get to hold events in the main space.

[apl68]

If people who consider drag shows African-Americans threatening to their children--and again, they're not few in number in many communities--are made to feel unwelcome in a library, then there's a segment of a community that is not being well-served.

What is the difference?

Being an African American is not a performance or an event.  A drag queen story time is a performance and an event.  If a drag queen came to our library, for example, then this person would receive service in the same manner as any other patron (This isn't a hypothetical situation, BTW--we had one who used to come here some years back.  Got the same service as anybody else).  If they wanted to hold a story time for young children, we would have to consider community reactions.  Since we have good reason to believe that the reaction would be negative, we would have to decline.  If this library was in another community this might not be the case.  But this library does not serve that community.  It serves this one.  As librarians, we have to serve the community we have, not what some might wish it would be.

[Wahoo Redux]

If people who consider drag shows African-Americans threatening to their children--and again, they're not few in number in many communities--are made to feel unwelcome in a library, then there's a segment of a community that is not being well-served.

What is the difference?

Being an African American is not a performance or an event.  A drag queen story time is a performance and an event. 

Unless I greatly misunderstand what it is, any "story time" is a performance and an event, no matter who reads----straight, white, African-American, drag, or normative clothing.

By not allowing a drag queen to read story time, you are enacting a prejudice.

Prejudice is a reaction of hate.

You are trying to rationalize the prejudice because of the fear of a "negative reaction" from the community.  Rather than facing the prejudice, you give in to it.

What would you do if you have a sweet African-American grandmother who wants to perform a story time but the Klan members in the neighborhood would have a "negative reaction?"

How many injustices have been rationalized by serving the "community" or the "state" or the whatever?

[Wahoo Redux]

My point in both of these is that its highly unlikely that a significant change in public perception was caused by things like painting crosswalks. If anything, it may be that some people may be more unlikely to express their views because of them, but that's not the same thing.

"Significant change"----no, of course not.  But as a Christian you should know the importance of symbols.

If bigots are less likely to express their views then good.

The right to use a meeting room in a library is much different from the right to have an event in the main space of the library.

No. It's not.

If one group gets to use the main space of a library all groups get to use the main space of the library.

I'm guessing the right to use a meeting room applies to all kinds of groups, not just religious ones. That doesn't mean they all, (or any of them, for that matter), get to hold events in the main space.

If no one gets to use the main space of the library, so be it.

If one group gets to use the main space of the library, all groups get to use the main space of the library.

You are squirming around trying to rationalize.

[marshwiggle]

Really, Wahoo?  You really think that the only possible motive that anybody can have for opposing drag queen story hours at the public library is sheer, blind hatred? 

Yes.

It can be sublimated in all sorts of ways----in fact, sublimated so deeply that people may not know that they are actually acting on it----but yeah, that about sums it up.

Good people too.

Although, I did not say "sheer, blind hatred," simply "hatred" (a very human reaction) which people are taught to hold as a moral right.

So is it hate that motivates gay people who don't like pride parades?

But surely there are other reasons to march. What about dignity? Maybe I should have marched in Pride to show that I have dignity as a gay man. But if that's the reason to march, then some of the goings-on of the parade confuse me. It would be hard for me to convince my parents that I take pride in myself were I to march down their block in butt-less chaps and high-heels. I mean, in the proper contexts, sure, those things can be great, campy fun, and I understand the value of celebrating the queerness of queer. But I don't know that those things are really helping me make the case to my parents that gay people, too, have traditional family values.

So is it hate that motivates black people who don't support Black Lives Matter?

The phrase "Black Lives Matter," as I understand it, can be interpreted in
three ways. First, one can consider it to be a philosophical statement affirming and acknowledging that, in the face of current and historical oppression, there is inherent value in the lives and experiences of people of
African descent. Second, it represents a global, but mostly Western, social
movement against police brutality and other forms of violence perpetrated
against Black persons. And finally, it signifies the physical, socio-political
parent organization, its chapters/affiliates, leaders, and advocates.
I contend that it is a mistake to assume that all three interpretations are the
same or that they all experience the same level of support. While I have no
serious issues with those who proclaim the first, it has little personal relevance to me because ascribing value based on immutable characteristics is
not how I interact with the world around me. My life matters not because I
am of African descent, but because I am human. The second interpretation,
which this commentary focuses mostly on, is imbued with kernels of truth
but is ultimately founded upon a flawed, cherry-picked, nuance-deficient,
and often hyperbolic interpretation of current reality

So is it hate that motivates trans people who don't think trans women belong in womens' sports?

Caitlyn Jenner has come out in support of swimming's world governing body FINA after they voted to restrict the participation of transgender athletes in elite women's competitions, saying women's sport needs to be protected.

There seems to be a lot of self-hate in "marginalized communities", I guess.

[Wahoo Redux]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Marshy.

Sometimes people just don't like things, and that's okay.

I don't like parades particularly, tomato aspec, or modern jazz.  Those are not prejudices.

Let me remind you what the definition of "prejudice" and "bigotry" are.

prejudice
1 of 2
noun
prej·�u·�dice ˈpre-jə-dəs
Synonyms of prejudice
1
: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights
especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2
a
(1)
: preconceived judgment or opinion
(2)
: an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b
: an instance of such judgment or opinion
c
: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

bigotry
noun
big·�ot·�ry ˈbi-gə-trē
pluralbigotries
Synonyms of bigotry
1
: obstinate or intolerant devotion to one's own opinions and prejudices : the state of mind of a bigot
overcoming his own bigotry
2
: acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot
racial bigotry

What you posted are thoughtful commentaries on ongoing social issues.
You are now trying WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too hard.

[ciao_yall]

Really, Wahoo?  You really think that the only possible motive that anybody can have for opposing drag queen story hours at the public library is sheer, blind hatred?  It was not many years ago that drag shows were generally regarded as a form of adult entertainment.  There are many people who still consider them inappropriate for young children.  They consider a drag story time significantly threatening and objectionable--something that's far too edgy for a public library. 

Was this the case before someone picked up the cause that Drag Queen Story Hour was a pretense for grooming children to become transgendered pedophiles?

[kaysixteen]

If it be unacceptable to prevent a drag queen story hour at a pl, then what presentations, and by whom, would it be acceptable to deny access to said pl, and on what basis?

[little bongo]

Hannah Arendt wrote of the "banality of evil"--this thread reminds us in a timely manner of the banality of hate. I think we overlook how ordinary hate can be even more than evil, because we think of hate as passionate. Sometimes it is, but like love, hate can be quiet, simple, and direct without people "getting worked up."

Consider Roald Dahl's infamous comments about Hitler and Jews: "I mean, there's always a reason anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn't pick on them for no reason." Not a lot of manic, frothing passion there. You can imagine him saying this in a perfectly reasonable tone. Now substitute African-Americans. Now substitute drag queens. Now substitute trans. Now substitute gay. And you get the idea. It's hate, gang.

As for presentations that should be denied--how about story-readers who juggle flaming torches while on roller skates? There you've got some actual danger. Otherwise, maybe don't go to the library that day.

[marshwiggle]

What you posted are thoughtful commentaries on ongoing social issues.
You are now trying WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too hard.

So, how about these?
Multi-coloured road crossings pose a threat to people with sight loss, warn charities

Horses in the mounted unit of the Metropolitan Police Taskforce found the newly-painted crosswalks pretty scary.


How about those hateful dogs and horses?

Could you paint a rainbow crosswalk for under $81,000

The rainbow conundrum at UVic: Crosswalk refresh no simple paint job

UVic has said any repainting of the rainbow crosswalk will have to wait until it holds conversations with staff, faculty and students. It's spending $24,000 on those consultations

Cost of painting another rainbow crosswalk too high, Kimberley council says

The issue is cost. A staff report says that a rainbow crosswalk can cost 50 times what a traditional one costs. The Platzl rainbow crosswalk was painted in 2022 at a cost of $15,800. Today that quote has gone up almost $5,000.

Are all of the people raising all of these issues just expressing thinly-veiled hate?

[Wahoo Redux]

What you posted are thoughtful commentaries on ongoing social issues.
You are now trying WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY too hard.

So, how about these?
Multi-coloured road crossings pose a threat to people with sight loss, warn charities

Horses in the mounted unit of the Metropolitan Police Taskforce found the newly-painted crosswalks pretty scary.


How about those hateful dogs and horses?

Could you paint a rainbow crosswalk for under $81,000

The rainbow conundrum at UVic: Crosswalk refresh no simple paint job

UVic has said any repainting of the rainbow crosswalk will have to wait until it holds conversations with staff, faculty and students. It's spending $24,000 on those consultations

Cost of painting another rainbow crosswalk too high, Kimberley council says

The issue is cost. A staff report says that a rainbow crosswalk can cost 50 times what a traditional one costs. The Platzl rainbow crosswalk was painted in 2022 at a cost of $15,800. Today that quote has gone up almost $5,000.

Are all of the people raising all of these issues just expressing thinly-veiled hate?

Oh Marshy.  My God, son.

If there is a legitimately dangerous reason for not having rainbow crosswalks, then don't do them.

If your reason for not having rainbow crosswalks is hate and bigotry (likewise story times at the library), then do them.

If these people are screwing the numbers to make a rainbow crosswalk look dangerous or expensive----and I'd want the hard evidence----then my God yes that is bigotry and hate.

Do not be too fast to believe the extraordinary claims of hatemongers, Marshy.  I kind of doubt the expense or danger angles...