3-year degrees/race to the finish

[waterboy]

In today's Chronicle, there is a discussion on Community Colleges offering bachelors degrees. In that, there is a discussion on having 3 year degrees. And here's the misunderstanding:

"Sonny Ramaswamy, president of the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities, said his organization determined that the learning outcomes for the three-year programs were comparable to those of a four-year degree, and that graduate schools would accept them. He pointed out that three-year degrees are common in much of Europe and in his native India.

"Why is it the rest of the world thinks that an undergraduate degree can be accomplished in three years, and we don't?" Ramaswamy asked."

What he completely misses here is that 3 year degrees in Europe follow 13 years in public schools. So Europe (and some of India) has 13+3=16 years to a bachelors, while the US has 12+4=16 to a bachelors. Cutting that to 15 years potentially does a great disservice and, at the very least, what he says above is misleading.

[Engineer13]

I was shocked by this: "Last summer, another panel — this one the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities, a regional accreditor — approved a plan by a pair of four-year colleges in Idaho to offer bachelor's degrees consisting of just 90 credits, 30 fewer than normal."

How low can we go?

https://www.chronicle.com/article/race-to-the-finish

[Parasaurolophus]

Québec does three year degrees. But you have to complete two years of Cégep first (kind of like an associate's). High school ends after grade eleven, however.

[kaysixteen]

What is the general consensus amongst most academics  as to just what is the minimum amount of course-equivalent credits one ought to be required to obtain in order to  earn a bachelor's, and how many of these need to be formal course credits earned by, ahem, successfully completing an actual college class?

[dismalist]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a three year degree. After all, we already have two year degrees. The quality question can only be answered if one knows what's in the three years and what subjects are offered.

The noise comes from four year programs that feel threatened by the competition and are comfortable in their accreditor cartels. How about a bit of variety?

For the sake of transparency, it shouldn't be called a Bachelor's Degree, however.

[apl68]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

[marshwiggle]

One interesting angle on this is second degrees. Getting a second degree, (not a graduate degree, a second Bachelor's degree), usually doesn't require an additional 4 years, since the electives are kind of transferable.

Presumably, in the limit as (number of degrees) goes to infinity, the number of "additional" courses required will be just the required courses for the major itself.

[dismalist]

One interesting angle on this is second degrees. Getting a second degree, (not a graduate degree, a second Bachelor's degree), usually doesn't require an additional 4 years, since the electives are kind of transferable.

Presumably, in the limit as (number of degrees) goes to infinity, the number of "additional" courses required will be just the required courses for the major itself.

Oh, what an evil thought! That would just be another way of fueling the higher education arms race.

I doubt that is the intention of whoever is trying to get permission to offer the degree and market it as a substitute for a Bachelors, not a complement for a Bachelor's.

As I said, quality depends on what's in there. Take England: Three year degree focusing on a single subject. Sounds pleasing to me. Even having half a melange of the usual suspects in a US three year degree would at least save money. But it also depends on the subject. I can't imagine an engineering degree lasting only three years. One's bridges would collapse.

[dismalist]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

[Langue_doc]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

CUNY used to have remedial courses for Reading, Writing, and Math, because of the large influx of students who couldn't read, write, or do math. I'm not sure if these courses are still mandatory as I recall reading about the Reading courses being eliminated, and then the Writing courses because of the impact of these courses on the students' self-esteem.

ETA: Just found this article:

CUNY Ends Traditional Remedial Courses
January 12, 2023

University Finishes 7-Year Phaseout of the Outdated Non-Credit Bearing Remedial Courses
Now Offers Targeted Students Corequisite Support in First-Year Math and English Classes

[Wahoo Redux]

What he completely misses here is that 3 year degrees in Europe follow 13 years in public schools. So Europe (and some of India) has 13+3=16 years to a bachelors, while the US has 12+4=16 to a bachelors. Cutting that to 15 years potentially does a great disservice and, at the very least, what he says above is misleading.

Right now, Americans do not care about any of this.  They want cheaper, easier higher ed options.  So be it.

[dismalist]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

CUNY used to have remedial courses for Reading, Writing, and Math, because of the large influx of students who couldn't read, write, or do math. I'm not sure if these courses are still mandatory as I recall reading about the Reading courses being eliminated, and then the Writing courses because of the impact of these courses on the students' self-esteem.

ETA: Just found this article:

CUNY Ends Traditional Remedial Courses
January 12, 2023

University Finishes 7-Year Phaseout of the Outdated Non-Credit Bearing Remedial Courses
Now Offers Targeted Students Corequisite Support in First-Year Math and English Classes

Riotous! The article states that the non-credit remedial courses are being replaced by for credit co-requisite courses.

Nobody is being done a favor here, except perhaps the administrators.

[ciao_yall]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

CUNY used to have remedial courses for Reading, Writing, and Math, because of the large influx of students who couldn't read, write, or do math. I'm not sure if these courses are still mandatory as I recall reading about the Reading courses being eliminated, and then the Writing courses because of the impact of these courses on the students' self-esteem.

ETA: Just found this article:

CUNY Ends Traditional Remedial Courses
January 12, 2023

University Finishes 7-Year Phaseout of the Outdated Non-Credit Bearing Remedial Courses
Now Offers Targeted Students Corequisite Support in First-Year Math and English Classes

Riotous! The article states that the non-credit remedial courses are being replaced by for credit co-requisite courses.

Nobody is being done a favor here, except perhaps the administrators.

I did research on this a few years ago and found that students one level below first-year composition did better in writing-intensive content courses than in remedial English. "Drill and kill" isn't as effective for adult students as is learning in context, reading well-written prose, and caring about what you are writing about.

[dismalist]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

CUNY used to have remedial courses for Reading, Writing, and Math, because of the large influx of students who couldn't read, write, or do math. I'm not sure if these courses are still mandatory as I recall reading about the Reading courses being eliminated, and then the Writing courses because of the impact of these courses on the students' self-esteem.

ETA: Just found this article:

CUNY Ends Traditional Remedial Courses
January 12, 2023

University Finishes 7-Year Phaseout of the Outdated Non-Credit Bearing Remedial Courses
Now Offers Targeted Students Corequisite Support in First-Year Math and English Classes

Riotous! The article states that the non-credit remedial courses are being replaced by for credit co-requisite courses.

Nobody is being done a favor here, except perhaps the administrators.

I did research on this a few years ago and found that students one level below first-year composition did better in writing-intensive content courses than in remedial English. "Drill and kill" isn't as effective for adult students as is learning in context, reading well-written prose, and caring about what you are writing about.

Great! Do it in High School.

[ciao_yall]

It also overlooks the fact that most American K-12 education is so very, very poor.  American high school grads are often years behind students in other countries when they head to college.

Apparently, some years are a waste of time. Therefore, reduce K-12 to 1-10!

CUNY used to have remedial courses for Reading, Writing, and Math, because of the large influx of students who couldn't read, write, or do math. I'm not sure if these courses are still mandatory as I recall reading about the Reading courses being eliminated, and then the Writing courses because of the impact of these courses on the students' self-esteem.

ETA: Just found this article:

CUNY Ends Traditional Remedial Courses
January 12, 2023

University Finishes 7-Year Phaseout of the Outdated Non-Credit Bearing Remedial Courses
Now Offers Targeted Students Corequisite Support in First-Year Math and English Classes

Riotous! The article states that the non-credit remedial courses are being replaced by for credit co-requisite courses.

Nobody is being done a favor here, except perhaps the administrators.

I did research on this a few years ago and found that students one level below first-year composition did better in writing-intensive content courses than in remedial English. "Drill and kill" isn't as effective for adult students as is learning in context, reading well-written prose, and caring about what you are writing about.

Great! Do it in High School.

Uh... yeah.