Protests and police on campus

[Hibush]

Brown's administration negotiated dispersal on the condition that they put a divestment proposal to the Trustees. That seems like a pragmatic agreement. I expect the trustees will vote no on the proposal. Probably in the summer when the students are more widely dispersed.

[marshwiggle]

Wonder whether those non-students spotted among the demonstrators are actually "professional agitators" from out of town, or simply local lewd fellows of the baser sort taking an opportunity to blow off some steam by joining a protest?  Either way, if the protest's organizers can't keep such people from co-opting their protest for their own purposes, they'd do well to reconsider the wisdom of these demonstrations.

I was on a "liberal" campus during the first Gulf War when we only had, like, a week to protest.  The students managed not to damage anything, but I became convinced that their motivation was not pacificism but the excitement and adventure of the protest.  I was a bit older than most undergrads, so while I went to see the show I wasn't terribly impressed. 

What we ended up with were a number of elderly hippies stoking on the disruption. I'm sure someone has done scholarship on this aspect of American college life, and I just wonder how much protest is genuine and how much is the perception on students' part that this is how they are supposed to object and express themselves.  Certainly it is okay to support Gaza in this situation and call on Israel to behave in a civilized manner (without being accused of antisemitism), I just wonder how much actual good it does for students to wreck their own campuses.

I remember an editorial cartoon from the Rodney King riots. It showed a big white guy in front of a smashed store window with a television on his shoulder, and he was shouting "Justice for Rodney King!" I thought that about summed it up.

During the George Floyd riots in 2020, it was the same thing with the looters; no-one gave a flip whether the stores where white- or black-owned. They were just thieves who wanted free stuff.

I would imagine at any sort of protest, from any part of the political spectrum, many (if not most) of the most violent agitators have little or no connection to the cause, but just want to steal and destroy.

[jimbogumbo]

I would imagine at any sort of protest, from any part of the political spectrum, many (if not most) of the most violent agitators have little or no connection to the cause, but just want to steal and destroy.

What you describe above is clearly wrong, but just as clearly unlike what is actually happening in these protests.


https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/03/college-campus-protests-israel-gaza-student-journalists-00155672

[Parasaurolophus]

It may be worth reminding people that even the Civil Rights protests, protests which we widely acknowledge as good and non-violent, and models of good protests, were very unpopular. In 1961, only 27% of people thought sit-ins, freedom buses, etc. helped the Civil Rights cause. in 1968, fully 75% of whites disapproved of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Protests are disruptive, and that doesn't win them many friends. But that doesn't make them wrong, or less important.

[dismalist]

Hamas is not Gandhi.

[Parasaurolophus]

Hamas is not Gandhi.

Who said they were? These aren't pro-Hamas protests, and I wasn't talking about Hamas's attack on Israel.

[dismalist]

Hamas is not Gandhi.

Who said they were? These aren't pro-Hamas protests, and I wasn't talking about Hamas's attack on Israel.

"I am not crazy; my reality is just different from yours."
--Lewis Carroll

[Parasaurolophus]

"I am not crazy; my reality is just different from yours."
--Lewis Carroll

I'm not so sure 'reality' is the right word, if that's what you think is going on.

[Wahoo Redux]

It may be worth reminding people that even the Civil Rights protests, protests which we widely acknowledge as good and non-violent, and models of good protests, were very unpopular. In 1961, only 27% of people thought sit-ins, freedom buses, etc. helped the Civil Rights cause. in 1968, fully 75% of whites disapproved of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Protests are disruptive, and that doesn't win them many friends. But that doesn't make them wrong, or less important.

I have a hard time seeing these kids in the same league as the freedom fighters. They are not analogous to people who selflessly give their lives to others, and I have a hard time believing they are going to actually accomplish anything except, perhaps, lose Biden some votes.  Remember that the J6 crowd likes this analogy too and loves to see hypocrisy in people's support for wealthy students camping in a public space.

Our culture has got to learn to think past World War II and the '70s-style protest.  I don't think it works anymore.  And I am anti-Hamas but pro-Palestinian-independence.       

[marshwiggle]

I would imagine at any sort of protest, from any part of the political spectrum, many (if not most) of the most violent agitators have little or no connection to the cause, but just want to steal and destroy.

What you describe above is clearly wrong, but just as clearly unlike what is actually happening in these protests.


https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/03/college-campus-protests-israel-gaza-student-journalists-00155672

With so many incidents taking place in so many places, it's hard for anyone to grasp what's really happening at America's universities right now. So POLITICO Magazine reached out this week to top student journalists, who have been reporting on the turmoil at the ground level for weeks and months. As neutral observers able to interact with all sides, they can provide unique insights, even as they watch friends get arrested or worry if their graduation ceremonies will even take place.

About as neutral as Fox news on the Jan. 6 riots.

[Parasaurolophus]

It may be worth reminding people that even the Civil Rights protests, protests which we widely acknowledge as good and non-violent, and models of good protests, were very unpopular. In 1961, only 27% of people thought sit-ins, freedom buses, etc. helped the Civil Rights cause. in 1968, fully 75% of whites disapproved of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Protests are disruptive, and that doesn't win them many friends. But that doesn't make them wrong, or less important.

I have a hard time seeing these kids in the same league as the freedom fighters. They are not analogous to people who selflessly give their lives to others, and I have a hard time believing they are going to actually accomplish anything except, perhaps, lose Biden some votes.  Remember that the J6 crowd likes this analogy too and loves to see hypocrisy in people's support for wealthy students camping in a public space.

Our culture has got to learn to think past World War II and the '70s-style protest.  I don't think it works anymore.  And I am anti-Hamas but pro-Palestinian-independence.       

The point isn't that they're in the same league. It's that even the "model" protests of the past were widely despised. So we need to rethink the way we relate to them in these discussions.

For my part, I would be curious to know how many especially among those most vocally dismissive or sneering of these protests--have ever participated in a protest of heir own. Because I see a lot of tarring with broad brushes going on.

[Wahoo Redux]

For my part, I would be curious to know how many especially among those most vocally dismissive or sneering of these protests--have ever participated in a protest of heir own. Because I see a lot of tarring with broad brushes going on.

Dude, I grew up on the west coast in the '80s. 

I observed my fair share of protests and participated in several.  That's part of the reason I think this style of protest has turned sour.

Nevertheless, I marched against the first Gulf War because at the time it seemed like a very scary prospect.  It did not (yet) lead to World War III, but I think we've seen a whole series of atrocities on all sides in part because of it (no facile answers to what we should have done exist, BTW).

So yeah, I've seen protests. 

And for the record, I think one can be anti-occupation and anti-occupied Palestine without being antisemitic.  Israel has things to answer for and America should stop supporting her until she becomes a humane state.  Oh, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

However, we have been marching, screaming, occupying, and fighting police for close to a hundred years if you count the Bonus Army of 1932.  MLK prevailed because of his maturity in the face of oppression.  Now we have kids occupying their very vulnerable college campuses, resisting when given lawful commands by the police, and then crying to the media when they are arrested.  And many people have a specific kneejerk reaction, "The students were peaceful," as if that gives them the right to break the law.

We need a new cultural imagination to meet our challenges.  I don't think the old system is working any more.

[marshwiggle]

And for the record, I think one can be anti-occupation and anti-occupied Palestine without being antisemitic.  Israel has things to answer for and America should stop supporting her until she becomes a humane state.  Oh, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

However, we have been marching, screaming, occupying, and fighting police for close to a hundred years if you count the Bonus Army of 1932.  MLK prevailed because of his maturity in the face of oppression.  Now we have kids occupying their very vulnerable college campuses, resisting when given lawful commands by the police, and then crying to the media when they are arrested.  And many people have a specific kneejerk reaction, "The students were peaceful," as if that gives them the right to break the law.

We need a new cultural imagination to meet our challenges.  I don't think the old system is working any more.

Well said. What I think many young people don't get is that MLK modelled his actions on Gandhi, and both of them saw that their protests were only a pointer to the social change that would inevitably happen in a basically moral society. No protest had to achieve specific, short term results. The impatience of protests now requires that they have concrete, immediate outcomes, so the disruption has to escalate until they win.

"Getting out the message" has been replaced by "getting in peoples' faces until they cave."

[Parasaurolophus]

For my part, I would be curious to know how many especially among those most vocally dismissive or sneering of these protests--have ever participated in a protest of heir own. Because I see a lot of tarring with broad brushes going on.

Dude, I grew up on the west coast in the '80s. 

I observed my fair share of protests and participated in several.  That's part of the reason I think this style of protest has turned sour.

Nevertheless, I marched against the first Gulf War because at the time it seemed like a very scary prospect.  It did not (yet) lead to World War III, but I think we've seen a whole series of atrocities on all sides in part because of it (no facile answers to what we should have done exist, BTW).

So yeah, I've seen protests. 

And for the record, I think one can be anti-occupation and anti-occupied Palestine without being antisemitic.  Israel has things to answer for and America should stop supporting her until she becomes a humane state.  Oh, and Hamas is a terrorist organization.

However, we have been marching, screaming, occupying, and fighting police for close to a hundred years if you count the Bonus Army of 1932.  MLK prevailed because of his maturity in the face of oppression.  Now we have kids occupying their very vulnerable college campuses, resisting when given lawful commands by the police, and then crying to the media when they are arrested.  And many people have a specific kneejerk reaction, "The students were peaceful," as if that gives them the right to break the law.

We need a new cultural imagination to meet our challenges.  I don't think the old system is working any more.

FWIW, I didn't have you in mind.

[spork]

Hamas is not Gandhi.

What's a Gandhi?