Protests and police on campus

[Parasaurolophus]

The USA also heavily subsidizes Egypt's military, as part of the Camp David Peace Agreement. In an excellent example of making America great again, ammunition fired at Egyptian pro-democracy demonstrators in January 2011 was manufactured in the USA with U.S. taxpayer money. Didn't see any Ivy League campus protests about that. Although I can list numerous other examples (looking at you, Saudi Arabia, killing Yemenis with your American weapons), but I won't.

I certainly took part in demonstrations related to those conflicts, but not at a US university, let alone an Ivy League institution. I can't, offhand, remember whether there were any. But let's suppose not. The fact that in the past students didn't come together to protest against American aid to Saudi Arabia or Egypt, if it is one, has no bearing on whether the students there here and now are right to protest American involvement in the war on Gaza. There will always be some other event we can point to that did not gather sufficient attention and outrage (though it certainly merited it), but that doesn't mean that the attention and outrage that some conflict does garner is misplaced, especially when it involves a client state of one's own country.

Hamas, or what's left it of it, has managed to persuade, with the connivance/laziness of mainstream U.S. media outlets, a chunk of Ivy League college students that American white vs. brown race politics maps exactly to the Palestinian-Israeli situation. Score one for American ignorance.

This isn't a very plausible analysis. Hamas hasn't convinced anyone; instead, people have been convinced by the atrocities Israel has perpetrated in full public view. (I write this, incidentally, as the UN has uncovered mass graves at hospitals containing the headless, limbless, and handcuffed corpses of men, women, and children alike; but that's not what I mean, because it didn't take place in full public view.)


The most charitable explanation--and this is clearly the explanation Ockham's razor favours--is just that they've seen and heard about what's going on, and found it appalling, and they've seen their own government's response, and judged it wanting.

[dismalist]

Agitprop.

[spork]

Agitprop.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

As for the U.S. media, I haven't seen a single story that subtracts off an estimated number of dead Hamas soldiers from the total number of Gazans killed (which itself is a figure originating from Hamas).

[Parasaurolophus]

As for the U.S. media, I haven't seen a single story that subtracts off an estimated number of dead Hamas soldiers from the total number of Gazans killed (which itself is a figure originating from Hamas).

Everyone has treated the Health Ministry's numbers as credible in the past, including Israel and the US government. That said, it's (1) clearly under-counting (because it's only counting those it can absolutely confirm), and (2) the infrastructure is now so degraded that keeping a reliable total tally is increasingly impossible.

That said, as of last month the estimate was 30k dead (~13k children), 70k injured, and ~10k missing (the death tally is now past 34k). At about the same time, Israel was claiming ~12k Hamas dead, while Hamas claimed and denied 6k. (Israel has provided no evidence for its numbers, however, and given what we know of its targeting practices--viz., 'male = Hamas' and 'bomb them in their homes at night', it's virtually guaranteed to be a vast over-count).

I can't speak to US media, of course (apart from print media, where these figures are definitely mentioned--but I don't haunt the big publications), but this is readily available and often cited (i.e. daily!) information in Canada and on the BBC. Hamas casualties are frequently, but not always, mentioned. I don't know that it really is appropriate not to count them as casualties, however; after all, we (rightly!) count IDF casualties from the October 7th attack, as well as the subsequent war (though it's worth pointing out that Israel has not been forthcoming about its casualty numbers). To subtract them sounds, to me, like an effort to sanitize the indiscriminate killing that is taking place.

And even if you buy the IDF's numbers--which you shouldn't--the ratio of one dead child to one dead Hamas fighter isn't exactly a great look.

[dismalist]

The issue is never the issue. The issue is always the revolution.

[kaysixteen]

How do we know who exactly qualifies as a 'Hamas soldier'?   Do these men wear uniforms and carry official id?  Do they have Hamas-issued serial numbers and ranks, to be offered to Israelis who catch them?

[spork]

How do we know who exactly qualifies as a 'Hamas soldier'?   Do these men wear uniforms and carry official id?  Do they have Hamas-issued serial numbers and ranks, to be offered to Israelis who catch them?

They do not wear uniforms, do not openly identify themselves as combatants, deliberately target civilians, use schools and hospitals as shields, etc., and in doing so, violate various components of the Geneva Conventions related to the laws of war.

I will point out that, at least in the case of Columbia University, much of the incessant hullabaloo has been coming from non-Columbia-associated protesters on public streets adjacent to campus.

I think it's fair to ask what the reaction of university administrations and local law enforcement would be if protesters on or off campus were shouting slogans advocating for the extermination of Black, LGBTQ, or other groups.

Now where did I put my Gays for Gaza banner?

[marshwiggle]

And even if you buy the IDF's numbers--which you shouldn't--the ratio of one dead child to one dead Hamas fighter isn't exactly a great look.

And for comparison, what ratio of Israeli *hostage to dead IDF member is a "great look"?

*or decapitated baby, raped woman, etc.

[ciao_yall]

And even if you buy the IDF's numbers--which you shouldn't--the ratio of one dead child to one dead Hamas fighter isn't exactly a great look.

And for comparison, what ratio of Israeli *hostage to dead IDF member is a "great look"?

*or decapitated baby, raped woman, etc.

Now that Gaza is being attacked as a whole by IDF, I daresay there are a lot more Gazans trying to defend their homes and families. So are they considered Hamas as well?

[Parasaurolophus]

I think it's fair to ask what the reaction of university administrations and local law enforcement would be if protesters on or off campus were shouting slogans advocating for the extermination of Black, LGBTQ, or other groups.

Are they actually calling for the extermination of Jews or Israelis? Because, if not, then no, it's not a fair question.

And even if you buy the IDF's numbers--which you shouldn't--the ratio of one dead child to one dead Hamas fighter isn't exactly a great look.

And for comparison, what ratio of Israeli *hostage to dead IDF member is a "great look"?

*or decapitated baby, raped woman, etc.

The smaller the better? Considering that the IDF straight-up murdered as many (escaped) hostages as it's rescued (three each), not to mention he dozens they've killed in the bombings, I'm not holding my breath. It's almost as though they don't actually care about the hostages.

[Ruralguy]

Certainly the families of the hostages are concerned that the Netanyahu government and the IDF aren't particularly concerned about the hostages. Although, due to how they were taken and by whom, I don't think freeing them en masse or even in multiple raids is a realistic expectation. Dealing for them seems to be about the only way to go, but that road is leading to nowhere at the moment. Sadly, many thought to be living may not be.

Also, sorry, but please be careful in using words like "murder." Murder implies intentionality. Although a soldier intentionally shot a weapon, they certainly didn't intentionally shoot a hostage from their own country.

[Parasaurolophus]

Also, sorry, but please be careful in using words like "murder." Murder implies intentionality. Although a soldier intentionally shot a weapon, they certainly didn't intentionally shoot a hostage from their own country.

I mean, they were unarmed, unclothed, waving a flag, and yelling in Hebrew, explaining that they were hostages. They wounded one who crawled into a building to hide, and they hunted him down and killed him. They may not have intended to kill three hostages, but they certainly intended to kill three unarmed people. It's a distinction without a meaningful difference. If I plot to murder my rival but the person I kill turns out to have been his brother, it's still counted as murder.

Is there a better word I should have used? Because it wasn't an accident, and it was a war crime (deliberately killing unarmed civilians and prisoners is forbidden by international law).

[marshwiggle]

Is there a better word I should have used? Because it wasn't an accident, and it was a war crime (deliberately killing unarmed civilians and prisoners is forbidden by international law).

Hamas seems to be able to get the best of both worlds. It can be seen as "defending" the people in Gaza, but the atrocities it commits can be overlooked because it's not actually overseen by any government, (so pesky things like international law don't apply to it.)

[secundem_artem]

Iran seems to be considering Hamas as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and supplying them with weaponry, but other than that, is there any material assistance coming into Gaza from the Arab world?  If there are huge protests in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon or elsewhere about what is happening to their co-religionists I have not seen any mention of it.  It's not as if Egypt opened the Rafah crossing to let in any refugees.

It seems as if the protests are coming only from milk fed, middle class American college students at Ivy League schools brought up on a diet high in content about power, colonialism, and privilege.

My take on the whole situation is two-fold.

Hamas made a horrific miscalculation.  I think they figured that if they could provoke Israel into an all out shooting war, the Arab nations would come to their aid militarily.  That does not appear to have happened other than maybe some food aid air drops.

Second, Netanyahu completely buggered up the response to October 7.  I can't think of any example where a superior military power was actually able to dislodge a rag tag militia that can hide among the populace, take a few pot shots, and disappear back into the crowd.  Destroying Hamas was a fool's dream.  And now he has a tiger by the tail and is either too stupid or too afraid to let go.  Alternatively, he has the taste of blood in his mouth and has decided he likes it.

There are no good guys in this debacle. 

[dismalist]

 

I can't think of any example where a superior military power was actually able to dislodge a rag tag militia that can hide among the populace, take a few pot shots, and disappear back into the crowd.

It is forgotten that the French military won the Battle of Algiers and, indeed, controlled Algeria. Algeria gained independence because of support from outside. This was called "the internationalization of the conflict". This strategy has been imitated by the PLO, and now Hamas. Placing armed fighters among the civilian population is intended to cause lots of civilian casualties, which are then thought to stimulate outside support.

I don't think it will be successful because the Battle for Gaza is being fought by a neighboring, independent country with an existential interest in complete victory, something that metropolitan France never had -- French soil was not seriously threatened by the NLF.

Less dramatic historical memory surrounds the Malayan Emergency [1948 - 1960] because the British defeated the insurgents.