2024 Elections Thread

[ciao_yall]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Unions and a high minimum wage would prevent a lot of that exploitation you describe.

[ciao_yall]

According to a Trumpist family member...

1) Pro-life!!!!!
2) What if it was true that even ONE immigrant ate ONE dog?
3) Harris was wearing a wireless mc disguised as an earring.
4) Did I mention the innocent unborn?

For my Trump-voting parents, it's the economy and illegal immigration.  They don't like him at all, but they will vote for him on those policies alone.

The concept of "illegal immigration" is weird to me.

We have more plenty of people who want to enter this country, and plenty of jobs for them.

So why don't we make it easy? Show up, register, fingerprints, get a taxpayer ID and start your path to citizenship?

They would have jobs, reduce their poverty, reduce/eliminate the need for an underground economy, and it would be easier to track/deal with criminals.

Why do we have this definition of "illegal?" Whom does it serve?

The US had free immigration, communicable diseases and the Chinese Exclusion Act aside, until 1922. Everything worked fine.

The contemporary complication is the Welfare State. You can have a Welfare State or you can have free immigration. You can't have both.

Why not?

[dismalist]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Unions and a high minimum wage would prevent a lot of that exploitation you describe.

According to a Trumpist family member...

1) Pro-life!!!!!
2) What if it was true that even ONE immigrant ate ONE dog?
3) Harris was wearing a wireless mc disguised as an earring.
4) Did I mention the innocent unborn?

For my Trump-voting parents, it's the economy and illegal immigration.  They don't like him at all, but they will vote for him on those policies alone.

The concept of "illegal immigration" is weird to me.

We have more plenty of people who want to enter this country, and plenty of jobs for them.

So why don't we make it easy? Show up, register, fingerprints, get a taxpayer ID and start your path to citizenship?

They would have jobs, reduce their poverty, reduce/eliminate the need for an underground economy, and it would be easier to track/deal with criminals.

Why do we have this definition of "illegal?" Whom does it serve?

The US had free immigration, communicable diseases and the Chinese Exclusion Act aside, until 1922. Everything worked fine.

The contemporary complication is the Welfare State. You can have a Welfare State or you can have free immigration. You can't have both.

Why not?

Unions and a high minimum wage would ensure that the immigrants remain unemployed.

You can't have both free immigration and a Welfare State because those coming to benefit from the Welfare State would swamp the system.

[ciao_yall]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Unions and a high minimum wage would prevent a lot of that exploitation you describe.

According to a Trumpist family member...

1) Pro-life!!!!!
2) What if it was true that even ONE immigrant ate ONE dog?
3) Harris was wearing a wireless mc disguised as an earring.
4) Did I mention the innocent unborn?

For my Trump-voting parents, it's the economy and illegal immigration.  They don't like him at all, but they will vote for him on those policies alone.

The concept of "illegal immigration" is weird to me.

We have more plenty of people who want to enter this country, and plenty of jobs for them.

So why don't we make it easy? Show up, register, fingerprints, get a taxpayer ID and start your path to citizenship?

They would have jobs, reduce their poverty, reduce/eliminate the need for an underground economy, and it would be easier to track/deal with criminals.

Why do we have this definition of "illegal?" Whom does it serve?

The US had free immigration, communicable diseases and the Chinese Exclusion Act aside, until 1922. Everything worked fine.

The contemporary complication is the Welfare State. You can have a Welfare State or you can have free immigration. You can't have both.

Why not?

Unions and a high minimum wage would ensure that the immigrants remain unemployed.

You can't have both free immigration and a Welfare State because those coming to benefit from the Welfare State would swamp the system.

That is not the experience in other countries with free movement across borders and a generous social safety net.

[dismalist]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Unions and a high minimum wage would prevent a lot of that exploitation you describe.

According to a Trumpist family member...

1) Pro-life!!!!!
2) What if it was true that even ONE immigrant ate ONE dog?
3) Harris was wearing a wireless mc disguised as an earring.
4) Did I mention the innocent unborn?

For my Trump-voting parents, it's the economy and illegal immigration.  They don't like him at all, but they will vote for him on those policies alone.

The concept of "illegal immigration" is weird to me.

We have more plenty of people who want to enter this country, and plenty of jobs for them.

So why don't we make it easy? Show up, register, fingerprints, get a taxpayer ID and start your path to citizenship?

They would have jobs, reduce their poverty, reduce/eliminate the need for an underground economy, and it would be easier to track/deal with criminals.

Why do we have this definition of "illegal?" Whom does it serve?

The US had free immigration, communicable diseases and the Chinese Exclusion Act aside, until 1922. Everything worked fine.

The contemporary complication is the Welfare State. You can have a Welfare State or you can have free immigration. You can't have both.

Why not?

Unions and a high minimum wage would ensure that the immigrants remain unemployed.

You can't have both free immigration and a Welfare State because those coming to benefit from the Welfare State would swamp the system.

That is not the experience in other countries with free movement across borders and a generous social safety net.

Really? For  starters, go to the banliues. Try Sweden and Germany next.

[marshwiggle]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Unions and a high minimum wage would prevent a lot of that exploitation you describe.

According to a Trumpist family member...

1) Pro-life!!!!!
2) What if it was true that even ONE immigrant ate ONE dog?
3) Harris was wearing a wireless mc disguised as an earring.
4) Did I mention the innocent unborn?

For my Trump-voting parents, it's the economy and illegal immigration.  They don't like him at all, but they will vote for him on those policies alone.

The concept of "illegal immigration" is weird to me.

We have more plenty of people who want to enter this country, and plenty of jobs for them.

So why don't we make it easy? Show up, register, fingerprints, get a taxpayer ID and start your path to citizenship?

They would have jobs, reduce their poverty, reduce/eliminate the need for an underground economy, and it would be easier to track/deal with criminals.

Why do we have this definition of "illegal?" Whom does it serve?

The US had free immigration, communicable diseases and the Chinese Exclusion Act aside, until 1922. Everything worked fine.

The contemporary complication is the Welfare State. You can have a Welfare State or you can have free immigration. You can't have both.

Why not?

Unions and a high minimum wage would ensure that the immigrants remain unemployed.

You can't have both free immigration and a Welfare State because those coming to benefit from the Welfare State would swamp the system.

That is not the experience in other countries with free movement across borders and a generous social safety net.

Really? For  starters, go to the banliues. Try Sweden and Germany next.

And Denmark. And the Netherlands.

And NO country has FREE movement across borders. (Well, maybe Syria, Venezuela, and Haiti aren't too worried about illegal immigration.)

[spork]

[...]

 (Well, maybe Syria, Venezuela, and Haiti aren't too worried about illegal immigration.)

Places with very successful emigration policies.

As for the U.S., as pointed out by the U.S. Census Bureau and researchers like Matthew Desmond, the official poverty rate has ranged between 11% and 15% of the population since the mid-1960s. We like to keep some people poor and invent policies to achieve this goal. Unfortunately these folks don't want to pick vegetables, butcher cows, or nail shingles, so we have to convince other people to cross our borders illegally.

[ciao_yall]

[...]

 (Well, maybe Syria, Venezuela, and Haiti aren't too worried about illegal immigration.)

Places with very successful emigration policies.

As for the U.S., as pointed out by the U.S. Census Bureau and researchers like Matthew Desmond, the official poverty rate has ranged between 11% and 15% of the population since the mid-1960s. We like to keep some people poor and invent policies to achieve this goal. Unfortunately these folks don't want to pick vegetables, butcher cows, or nail shingles, so we have to convince other people to cross our borders illegally.

France,Germany and Sweden and others are dealing with racism and Islamophobia.

[marshwiggle]

[...]

 (Well, maybe Syria, Venezuela, and Haiti aren't too worried about illegal immigration.)

Places with very successful emigration policies.

As for the U.S., as pointed out by the U.S. Census Bureau and researchers like Matthew Desmond, the official poverty rate has ranged between 11% and 15% of the population since the mid-1960s. We like to keep some people poor and invent policies to achieve this goal. Unfortunately these folks don't want to pick vegetables, butcher cows, or nail shingles, so we have to convince other people to cross our borders illegally.

France,Germany and Sweden and others are dealing with racism and Islamophobia.

And how big were those problems before the influx of huge numbers of migrants?

[spork]

[...]

 (Well, maybe Syria, Venezuela, and Haiti aren't too worried about illegal immigration.)

Places with very successful emigration policies.

As for the U.S., as pointed out by the U.S. Census Bureau and researchers like Matthew Desmond, the official poverty rate has ranged between 11% and 15% of the population since the mid-1960s. We like to keep some people poor and invent policies to achieve this goal. Unfortunately these folks don't want to pick vegetables, butcher cows, or nail shingles, so we have to convince other people to cross our borders illegally.

France,Germany and Sweden and others are dealing with racism and Islamophobia.

Uh, maybe I'm missing the obvious, but I don't see how prejudice in these European countries connects to the 2024 elections, poverty, or immigration policies in the U.S.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Intuitive, but is it actually true? Evidence is murky at best (see work from Michael Clemens).

[Sun_Worshiper]

Anyway, to debate the impacts of immigration on wages and jobs is fine, although should obviously be accompanied by wider economic implications (including with attention to inflation). But this "Haitians eating dogs" stuff from the top figures in the GOP is truly despicable.

[dismalist]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Intuitive, but is it actually true? Evidence is murky at best (see work from Michael Clemens).

It's murky for economy wide average wages, clearly because some immigrants are high skill. It's not murky for low skilled wages.

I do know of one established theory that claims after a fall in the unskilled wage it eventually rises again to its old level. But that doesn't happen instantaneously, so there is lost earnings even after the rise.

Inflation? Surely second order. Inflation is made by the Federal Reserve, aided by the Treasury. Inflation seems to be the flavor-du-jour.

Haitians eating dogs = Orange man bad!

[Sun_Worshiper]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Intuitive, but is it actually true? Evidence is murky at best (see work from Michael Clemens).

It's murky for economy wide average wages, clearly because some immigrants are high skill. It's not murky for low skilled wages.

I do know of one established theory that claims after a fall in the unskilled wage it eventually rises again to its old level. But that doesn't happen instantaneously, so there is lost earnings even after the rise.

Inflation? Surely second order. Inflation is made by the Federal Reserve, aided by the Treasury. Inflation seems to be the flavor-du-jour.

Haitians eating dogs = Orange man bad!

Actually it is murky for low skilled workers too. Immigrants can compete for low skill jobs, thereby decreasing wages (although various studies find little to no effect), but their presence can also create new labor market opportunities that can grow wages - including for low skill workers. Read the empirical studies and you'll see that the evidence is mixed and effect sizes are small.

And yes, it is bad to make up and amplify racist conspiracy theories. Even you should be able to understand that.

[dismalist]

Another reason for those at the bottom to vote for Trump on immigration. Immigrants push down unskilled workers' wages.

Intuitive, but is it actually true? Evidence is murky at best (see work from Michael Clemens).

It's murky for economy wide average wages, clearly because some immigrants are high skill. It's not murky for low skilled wages.

I do know of one established theory that claims after a fall in the unskilled wage it eventually rises again to its old level. But that doesn't happen instantaneously, so there is lost earnings even after the rise.

Inflation? Surely second order. Inflation is made by the Federal Reserve, aided by the Treasury. Inflation seems to be the flavor-du-jour.

Haitians eating dogs = Orange man bad!

Actually it is murky for low skilled workers too. Immigrants can compete for low skill jobs, thereby decreasing wages (although various studies find little to no effect), but their presence can also create new labor market opportunities that can grow wages - including for low skill workers. Read the empirical studies and you'll see that the evidence is mixed and effect sizes are small.

And yes, it is bad to make up and amplify racist conspiracy theories. Even you should be able to understand that.

No, I read a survey, and that's plenty. The theory in much of this literature is, well, murky, to put it kindly.

It's taking fewer and fewer return posts for you to get personal. Well done.