2024 Elections Thread

[lightning]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

[nebo113]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

Honestly, I think inflation was an excuse not to vote for a black woman.  Misogyny and racism won.

[marshwiggle]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

The point which the Dems are missing is this: Trump may handle those things badly, or even make them worse, but you can be sure the things he will focus on are the things that matter to voters. The Democrats, on the other hand, keep telling voters "LOOK AT THIS!!! THIS IS WHAT MATTERS!!!", rather than paying attention to the voters themselves. (And calling them deplorable garbage, among other things.....)
Even abortion, which they thought would be a big win for them, clearly wasn't even as important to most women as they expected. (Or, even more sobering, may have actually worked against them with pro-life women, who may have been more of the electorate than they thought. Whether that's true or not, they clearly overestimated how much it would matter.)

[apl68]

I wonder if there is a fear among evangelicals against denying their belief in Jesus or someone who claims to be the Messiah, as Trump does. Because last time people didn't believe the Messiah it didn't turn out so well for him. Are they afraid of being damned for lacking "faith."

No, not unless they've grown extremely heterodox in their views.  Evangelical admirers of Trump imagine/hope that he may be God's choice to rescue the nation from various things that they fear (Even bad rulers, the theory goes, can be used by God to accomplish good things), but they understand that the Messiah means the returned Jesus and only that. 

That said, the massive decline in church attendance in recent decades demonstrates that most professing evangelicals and people from evangelical backgrounds, like most professing adherents to other Christian traditions, have for all practical purposes ceased to follow their traditions in any meaningful way.  Their professed faith is only a vestigial tribal identity.  And as G.K. Chesterton once observed, when people abandon their traditional beliefs, they become prone to embracing all sorts of weird stuff in place of them.

There has been speculation that de facto ex-evangelicals and other de facto ex-Christians are turning to cults like Qanon and the cult of Trump.  Though I haven't observed this in anybody I've known or known about, I'm sure it's happening in some places.  Jesus told his followers way back in the beginning that a time would come when many who professed to follow him would fall away and follow false teachers instead.  We appear to be seeing this now.

In all seriousness, I've long suspected that Trump was less a Messiah than a dry run/proof of concept/beta test for Antichrist.  Few Christians that I know seem to share that belief, but they're in no way trusting Trump as their Messiah.  They just persist in a desperate hope that something good will come from him.  My own view of Trump's election win is summed up in my current profile quote line, which is a warning from the Old Testament (I Samuel 8:18) about what happens when people trust in secular rulers instead of God.

[apl68]

Random replies:

1) apl, you live in a buckle of the Bible belt area, where evangelicalism dominates and Trump supporters are thick on the ground, meaning many of these will be sincere people whose commitment to Trump is marginal.   Around here, however, evangelicals are thin on the ground and white evangelical Trumpers feel like they are an oppressed minority.  The level of paranoia is extreme, and this produces weird reactions-- my church's membership and attendance have slimmed down greatly over the last three years or so, for a variety of reasons, esp since we started livestreaming when covid started, but try as I might, I cannot get more or less anyone to accept that the pastor's having turned our services into more or less overt Trump rallies might have something to do with this, esp wrt the increased departures of young adults.  And even the pastor himself has not-so-subtly decried the 'Trump can do no wrong' attitude that he reports having heard from some members.  What is also clear enough is the slow moving of the Overton Window wrt various  things regarding Harris, the 2020 election, more or less anything even tangentially related to modern American political life-- I really did not know what to say, for instance, when the pastor (enthusiastically amened by several men at our lunch table), stridently denied on several occasions that Harris was black (Trump of course had said such).  Attitudes and increasingly *behaviors* that would never have been acceptable even 15 years ago are now accepted, even in some cases normative.  I have just this past sunday taken out of mothballs my Trump 1.0-era injunction: 'never give to Pres. Trump any powers that you would not want Pres. AOC to have, because she will use those powers, and you will not like what she uses them for'.  I got a shrug.  I am also going to rehash the hypothetical 'what if Barack Obama had done that?'  We will see.  What bugs me even more now than it did 8 years back was that Trump has been president, we have seen his corruption, and he is no longer even attempting to hide what his plans for term 2.0 are, many of which plans are stunningly at variance with previous American evangelical norms.  Yet these people either shrug this off, deny facts/ gaslight, or increasingly even, moved Overton Window-style, seem to want and positively affirm such plans and overt corruption.  This is really bad for me, and makes me even more want to begin (I plan to do so tomorrow) a prelim local internet search for alternative congregations.

2) I get that apparently some lefties (including some overt grifters) are promulgating conspiracy theories wrt this election's having been stolen.   No mainstream Demo pols are doing this and all are speaking out against it.  But it is also true that at least some MAGAists are using this year's results as further ammo for their ongoing view of the 2020 election-- I heard this at church Sunday-- the idea being that Kamala's low vote total relative to Biden's demonstrates that indeed many of those Biden votes were fake.

I'm deeply sorry to hear that your pastor has let his political views intrude on his message from the pulpit in this way, Kay.  I saw some of this as a kid, during the only period when we attended a church my Dad did not pastor.  A pastor who does this has abused his authority and his mission by taking the focus away from God's Word and onto the false god of secular political power. If this is what has happened at your church, then you may indeed need to find another congregation.  Praying for guidance for you in this difficult decision.

[lightning]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

The point which the Dems are missing is this: Trump may handle those things badly, or even make them worse, but you can be sure the things he will focus on are the things that matter to voters. The Democrats, on the other hand, keep telling voters "LOOK AT THIS!!! THIS IS WHAT MATTERS!!!", rather than paying attention to the voters themselves. (And calling them deplorable garbage, among other things.....)
Even abortion, which they thought would be a big win for them, clearly wasn't even as important to most women as they expected. (Or, even more sobering, may have actually worked against them with pro-life women, who may have been more of the electorate than they thought. Whether that's true or not, they clearly overestimated how much it would matter.)

It's hard to know really know what matters to voters. And, what matters to voters was not the point I was trying to address, because, who really knows?

What I know for sure, is what I was discussing as a response to comparisons that are made between Germans<>Hitler and Americans<>Trump: The economy in the decade between WWI and the rise of Hitler in Germany was much much worse than the economy of the decade of the last ten years in the USA. The reason that I don't like using comparisons to the German economy in the interwar years as an explanation for the rise of Trump is because the USA economy did a lot better than German economy. The idea that lots of Americans were suffering economically and that's why they voted for a Hitler-wannabe confers absolution to those that voted for Trump, if the USA ends up like Nazi Germany.

[ciao_yall]

Thune won SML despite pressure from Trump and other MAGA-heads to support Scott or Cronyn.

Of course, they are already threatening to remove Thune.

Chaos reigns!

[jimbogumbo]

Defense: Pete Hegseth. Fox News, no experience
Intelligence: Tulsi Gabbard. No comment
AG: Matt Gaetz. Jesus wept.

[Kron3007]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

Obviously the comparison is not perfect, but there are similarities.  the degree of inflation and the economy are different, but Trump is using many of the same tools, which is what I was really referring to.  The enemies within, the immigrant/"other" problem, etc.  The main point is that when our grandchildren look back at this, they will likely have the same questions, even if it dosn't go full dictatorship or anything.

[Kron3007]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

The point which the Dems are missing is this: Trump may handle those things badly, or even make them worse, but you can be sure the things he will focus on are the things that matter to voters. The Democrats, on the other hand, keep telling voters "LOOK AT THIS!!! THIS IS WHAT MATTERS!!!", rather than paying attention to the voters themselves. (And calling them deplorable garbage, among other things.....)
Even abortion, which they thought would be a big win for them, clearly wasn't even as important to most women as they expected. (Or, even more sobering, may have actually worked against them with pro-life women, who may have been more of the electorate than they thought. Whether that's true or not, they clearly overestimated how much it would matter.)

What I find interesting is that from what I have seen Trump didnt really get many more votes than last election, the dems just got far fewer.  So, it's not that Trump's message resonated more this time around, its just that the Dems messaging didn't land as well.  As sad as it is, I think the reality is that Kamala just wasn't popular enough...a sad way to pick a leader.

As for the garbage comment, Trump has called dem voters all sorts of things so I dont think that's the key...

[kaysixteen]

Random questions, comments, etc.:

1) Good point about Americans today having much more access to info than Germans 100 years ago... but, were there in fact organized systems of rightist propaganda operating in Germany during the Weimar years?

2) I cannot deal with the cognitive dissonance in my own church-- there is very little reason to stay and continue to be propagandized, and of course I do know better.  We will see.

3) Jennifer Rubin had a good column in the WAPO this week, where she argued that Democrats need to set up an alternative multi-media system to counteract MAGA disinformation.  This is of course a great idea... but how do they get the MAGA faithful to tune in, log in, to such alternative sources of real information?

[ciao_yall]

Random questions, comments, etc.:

1) Good point about Americans today having much more access to info than Germans 100 years ago... but, were there in fact organized systems of rightist propaganda operating in Germany during the Weimar years?

Newspapers, radio, and the infamous Leni Reifenstahl. Plenty of people willing to sell propaganda to whomever wanted to buy it.

2) I cannot deal with the cognitive dissonance in my own church-- there is very little reason to stay and continue to be propagandized, and of course I do know better.  We will see.

Wishing you the best in finding a new spiritual community.

3) Jennifer Rubin had a good column in the WAPO this week, where she argued that Democrats need to set up an alternative multi-media system to counteract MAGA disinformation.  This is of course a great idea... but how do they get the MAGA faithful to tune in, log in, to such alternative sources of real information?

It's called real journalism, rolled out by The New York Times, The Economist, The New Yorker, and other sources of real information.

Support your local quality journalism.

I cancelled my subscription to WaPo but other than the endorsement debacle it's a great source of information. I may change my mind. LA Times - my cousin works there so I have to keep that subscription.

And I watch The Daily Show.

[kaysixteen]

Thank you for your encouragement.

Obviously the type of things you cite are 'real journalism'-- I sub to several myself.  But my question remaineth-- how do you get the target audience to bite, to take a break from Fox, etc., and investigate these real journalistic sites, esp since people like my pastor have well propagandized their flocks to view such real journalism entries as, well, 'fake news', if not outright evil?

[marshwiggle]

3) Jennifer Rubin had a good column in the WAPO this week, where she argued that Democrats need to set up an alternative multi-media system to counteract MAGA disinformation.  This is of course a great idea... but how do they get the MAGA faithful to tune in, log in, to such alternative sources of real information?

It's called real journalism, rolled out by The New York Times, The Economist, The New Yorker, and other sources of real information.

One interesting site is Ground News. I'm not a subscriber, but am thinking about it. It's a news aggregator, but what's most useful about it is that it shows how much certain stories are covered by various media outlets.

"Disinformation" is only partly about whether the facts are correct; it's also about whether certain facts are ever allowed to see the light of day. Whether it's Fox or MSNBC, what doesn't get covered is as important as what does.

[Kron3007]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

I think the other issue is that we have too much information, but not necessarily good information.

If you start googling vaccines, it is fairly easy to conclude that they definitely cause autism and should be avoided, especially if that's what you want to believe.

We live in an era with so much information that if is becoming hard to know what is true, and so easy to find support for whatever you want to believe.

Couple this with the general distrust of science and expertise I see growing and it is a recipe for this.

More information is really part of the issue.