2024 Elections Thread

[ciao_yall]

Thank you for your encouragement.

Obviously the type of things you cite are 'real journalism'-- I sub to several myself.  But my question remaineth-- how do you get the target audience to bite, to take a break from Fox, etc., and investigate these real journalistic sites, esp since people like my pastor have well propagandized their flocks to view such real journalism entries as, well, 'fake news', if not outright evil?

That's a great point.

"The Greatest Generation" was supposedly marked by propaganda in that they saw the ugly outcome and were thus suspicious of anything too emotional or manipulative. So that had a tempering effect on news because they would turn off anything too shrill.

Now everyone wants their dopamine fix, and coupled with Confirmation Bias, we are  where we are.

[lightning]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

I think the other issue is that we have too much information, but not necessarily good information.

If you start googling vaccines, it is fairly easy to conclude that they definitely cause autism and should be avoided, especially if that's what you want to believe.

We live in an era with so much information that if is becoming hard to know what is true, and so easy to find support for whatever you want to believe.

Couple this with the general distrust of science and expertise I see growing and it is a recipe for this.

More information is really part of the issue.

I don't have a problem with too much information. I have a problem with lots of people who see a newspaper article with a picture, from a space probe, of a diving board on Mars, presented as evidence for water on Mars.

[lightning]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

I think the other issue is that we have too much information, but not necessarily good information.

If you start googling vaccines, it is fairly easy to conclude that they definitely cause autism and should be avoided, especially if that's what you want to believe.

We live in an era with so much information that if is becoming hard to know what is true, and so easy to find support for whatever you want to believe.

Couple this with the general distrust of science and expertise I see growing and it is a recipe for this.

More information is really part of the issue.

I don't have a problem with too much information. I have a problem with lots of people who see a newspaper article with a picture, from a space probe, of a diving board on Mars, presented as evidence of water on Mars. And, they believe it.

[marshwiggle]

Growing up, everyone always wonders how the Nazis came to power and how ordinary Germans let it happen.  Now we have a pretty clear picture.

I'm not saying Trump is Hitler, but he clearly shows authoritarian signs and has used many of the same tricks.  It's amazing (and tragic) to see this play out in real time and I really fear for America and the world. 

I just hope I am wrong.

One of the explanations for the average German interwar Weimar was that the average German was destitute, in part due to hyper-inflation.

This is the part that really bugs me. The average US citizen of the last ten years was nowhere near as bad off, economically, as the average German was, in the Weimar Republic. Relative to Weimar, the average US citizen was affluent. 

Yet, the so-called bad economy and inflation in the USA lifted Trump back into power.

For this reason, I don't like comparisons to the average German during the rise of Hitler, because not only was the US economy much better than Weimar's economy, we also have access to information, so we can't say "I didn't know" which is the other apologist reason for the average German allowing Hitler to come to power.

Yes, we are worse than the Germans.

I also hope that I am wrong.

I think the other issue is that we have too much information, but not necessarily good information.

If you start googling vaccines, it is fairly easy to conclude that they definitely cause autism and should be avoided, especially if that's what you want to believe.

We live in an era with so much information that if is becoming hard to know what is true, and so easy to find support for whatever you want to believe.

Couple this with the general distrust of science and expertise I see growing and it is a recipe for this.

More information is really part of the issue.

Steven Pinker has a good article about dangerous truths.

Here's an interesting point:

Should we treat some ideas as dangerous? Let's exclude outright lies, deceptive propaganda,
incendiary conspiracy theories from malevolent crackpots and technological recipes for wanton
destruction. Consider only ideas about the truth of empirical claims or the effectiveness of
policies that, if they turned out to be true, would require a significant rethinking of our moral
sensibilities. And consider ideas that, if they turn out to be false, could lead to harm if people
believed them to be true. In either case, we don't know whether they are true or false a priori,
so only by examining and debating them can we find out. Finally, let's assume that we're not
talking about burning people at the stake or cutting out their tongues but about discouraging
their research and giving their ideas as little publicity as possible. There is a good case for
exploring all ideas relevant to our current concerns, no matter where they lead. The idea that
ideas should be discouraged a priori is inherently self-refuting. Indeed, it is the ultimate
arrogance, as it assumes that one can be so certain about the goodness and truth of one's
own ideas that one is entitled to discourage other people's opinions from even being
examined.

By trying to "protect" people from ideas that could be "dangerous" academics, media, and others ultimately encourage a culture of misinformation and "alternative facts", since no source can be counted on to be totally transparent with all of the facts.

[Parasaurolophus]

The ideas in question have been entertained, and definitively rejected. And they're entertained again if or when new evidence crops up that might suggest they latch on to a grain of truth. We don't need to entertain them ad nauseam.

Also, Pinker does not seem to know what 'a priori' means, or 'inherently'.

[marshwiggle]

A good analysis from Astead W. Herndon, a national politics reporter and the host of the politics podcast "The Run-Up".


What Trump's Win Tells Us About the Democratic Party

It's only about 3 minutes long, but he hit a lot of good points. (The video is from the New York Times.)

[spork]

Since we're veering toward Godwin's Law territory:

Daniel Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust.

As pointed out by writers like Lily Tsai in When People Want Punishment: Retributive Justice and the Puzzle of Authoritarian Popularity, some people just want to be told what to do. Thinking for oneself requires effort and makes one responsible for bad outcomes. Far easier to blame others. This makes authoritarian demagogues appealing.

Fareed Zakaria's analysis of election results on the Freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/fareed-zakaria-on-what-just-happened-and-what-comes-next/. He's in part pitching his book, which I can't recommend and think is far inferior to Pankaj Mishra's Age of Anger that I mentioned upthread, but I think he and Dubner make a couple of interesting points in the interview.

[spork]

A good analysis from Astead W. Herndon, a national politics reporter and the host of the politics podcast "The Run-Up".


What Trump's Win Tells Us About the Democratic Party

It's only about 3 minutes long, but he hit a lot of good points. (The video is from the New York Times.)

I agree. It's worth pointing out that Joe Biden, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, chose narcissism in the present over good governance in the future.

[jimbogumbo]

And now RFK Jr for HHS. Welcome to living in a nightmarish combination of 2024, 1950 and the Dark Ages for medical care.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

And now RFK Jr for HHS. Welcome to living in a nightmarish combination of 2024, 1950 and the Dark Ages for medical care.

It will be a circus! A kakistocracy, indeed!

[lightning]

And now RFK Jr for HHS. Welcome to living in a nightmarish combination of 2024, 1950 and the Dark Ages for medical care.

Say good-bye to the ACA.

[mythbuster]

I'm more worried about saying goodbye to the FDA and the CDC.

[ciao_yall]

Finally saw what Steven Cheung, Trumps spokesman and future press chief looks like.

OMG what a miserable wretch of a human being.

[Larimar]

I'm more worried about saying goodbye to the FDA and the CDC.

This. I'm also worried about the NPS and EPA.

[Stockmann]

Since we're veering toward Godwin's Law territory:

Daniel Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust.

As pointed out by writers like Lily Tsai in When People Want Punishment: Retributive Justice and the Puzzle of Authoritarian Popularity, some people just want to be told what to do. Thinking for oneself requires effort and makes one responsible for bad outcomes. Far easier to blame others. This makes authoritarian demagogues appealing.

Fareed Zakaria's analysis of election results on the Freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/fareed-zakaria-on-what-just-happened-and-what-comes-next/. He's in part pitching his book, which I can't recommend and think is far inferior to Pankaj Mishra's Age of Anger that I mentioned upthread, but I think he and Dubner make a couple of interesting points in the interview.

There are more recent parallels than the Nazis. Trump's playbook is basically the same as that of the Mexican Left - never admit to losing an election, rail against "the mafia of power" committing fraud to stay in power, never apologize and double down instead, etc. Bear in mind the Mexican Left enacted a hardline immigration policy - with soldiers deployed to the southern border, and basically stayed silent on Trump seizing migrant children from their parents and putting them in cages (they're in "good" company, the same can be said of the "family values" crows). The rise of Trump also closely resembles the rise of Chavez in Venezuela - down to attempting a coup and then getting voted in.