2024 Elections Thread

[ciao_yall]

It seems to me that the response to any probing, thinking, questioning, criticizing, analyzing, suggesting, or pointing at anything in the Democratic party is always the same: Trump! I look forward to 2028.

Be careful what you wish for. It means the Constitution was either amended (unlikely) or done away with.

[dismalist]

It seems to me that the response to any probing, thinking, questioning, criticizing, analyzing, suggesting, or pointing at anything in the Democratic party is always the same: Trump! I look forward to 2028.

Be careful what you wish for. It means the Constitution was either amended (unlikely) or done away with.

Let's abolish the popular vote in addition to abolishing the Electoral College!

[marshwiggle]

The Republicans made all sorts of wild claims or the "woke" left, but it wasn't reflected by any actual policy or claims the Dems were making.

What actual policies or pushes do you feel were too extreme? 

Males in women's locker rooms and prisons? Males on girls and women's sports teams? Defund the police? Decriminalize open drug use? Don't prosecute all kinds of property crime?

Take your pick.
 

But did the Biden government do any of these things or propose to Do any of them.  Did Harris run on any of this?  The messaging I saw from the Dems really doesn't propose any of that and was not that far left.

State and municipal Dem politicians did all of those things. These were not just extreme ideas promoted by a fringe element in the party; they were actual policies enacted by elected Dem officials.

The decisions made by state Republican governments will similarly get blamed on the federal party, and justly so.

[dismalist]

The Republicans made all sorts of wild claims or the "woke" left, but it wasn't reflected by any actual policy or claims the Dems were making.

What actual policies or pushes do you feel were too extreme? 

Males in women's locker rooms and prisons? Males on girls and women's sports teams? Defund the police? Decriminalize open drug use? Don't prosecute all kinds of property crime?

Take your pick.
 

But did the Biden government do any of these things or propose to Do any of them.  Did Harris run on any of this?  The messaging I saw from the Dems really doesn't propose any of that and was not that far left.

State and municipal Dem politicians did all of those things. These were not just extreme ideas promoted by a fringe element in the party; they were actual policies enacted by elected Dem officials.

The decisions made by state Republican governments will similarly get blamed on the federal party, and justly so.

Yes. Much of Federal policy can be enacted by Executive Order because the President is boss of the bureaucracy and he can tell the bureaucracy what to do. Also, to stay in the favor of the Federal government, many State and private organizations that get Federal government money willingly go along. Various elements of the Democratic party got their wishes that way. It's insidious, but effective. Putting it charitably, the mice dance when the cat's away.

Precisely to the point, it is very hard for politicians to credibly commit to a set of policies they did not espouse before, in contrast to, say, a corporate executive. That is one thing that made Kamala Harris so non-credible. The only case I know of a politician credibly changing his mind is "Tricky Dick" Nixon going to China after spending most of a life-time as an anti-communist. Note that he controlled the bureaucracy, and boy, did it resist.

But my wider point stays: The Democratic party has Trump, and little else. This thought has been growing on me since 2016, though the Nazi business and the end of democracy started in 2000 at the latest, certainly on college campuses.

[Langue_doc]

FWIW we live 30 minutes from Mexico and other than traffic jams it's pretty chill. Most undocumented ppl come by car or plane with a passport and just don't leave.

undocumented=no paperwork--passport, country of origin, date of birth, visa, required vaccines; undocumented people do not arrive through a legal port of entry, but instead either pay smugglers to take them across the border or cross the border on their own. See the numerous reports on mainstream media on how the undocumented enter the US and other countries.

Foreigners who come by car or plane with a passport have entered legally with the required passport, visa, shots, and other necessary documents, and hence are not "undocumented". 

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

As for the quote "I like to chat with people who tell me they are conservative, Republican, whatever. I tell them I am pretty liberal, but I promise not to argue if they just tell me what is most important to them and why. I'll just listen.", we're a democracy and do not have to explain or justify our choices. I would not have voted for Biden, so wrote to our elected representatives repeatedly as to why I wouldn't vote for him. (Google "the audacity of grope", which I saw on live TV almost a decade ago.)

Here in our city, people were unhappy with the millions of dollars going to Israel and Ukraine, despite the fact that our city has had drastic budget cuts. One in 8 children in public schools are homeless which makes it hard for people to support the Democrats. Furthermore, Trump has a large following among certain ethnic groups, as noted in this article:

The neighborhood where Democratic turnout dropped the most in terms of percentage change was Borough Park, an Orthodox Jewish enclave in Brooklyn that voted overwhelmingly for Mr. Trump. While support for Mr. Trump increased only slightly, from about 22,200 votes in 2020 to 22,700 in 2024, turnout for the Democratic candidate dropped 46 percent, from about 7,600 votes in 2020 to about 4,100 in 2024.

See also the comments in the Ethicist columm where most of the commenters tell the poster that his mother has the right to vote for whoever she chooses.

The latest article on Trump and New York:

Trump Won More of New York's Votes. Did He Win More of Its Love, Too?
The city tolerated Donald J. Trump, and then it loathed him. Now, some New Yorkers have begun to embrace him. The Kid from Queens couldn't be happier.

Articles are behind paywalls, unfortunately. I've used up my free shares, alas.

[hmaria1609]

If your local public library has a subscription to "NY Times," you can sign up for a digital pass with your library card.

[ciao_yall]

FWIW we live 30 minutes from Mexico and other than traffic jams it's pretty chill. Most undocumented ppl come by car or plane with a passport and just don't leave.

undocumented=no paperwork--passport, country of origin, date of birth, visa, required vaccines; undocumented people do not arrive through a legal port of entry, but instead either pay smugglers to take them across the border or cross the border on their own. See the numerous reports on mainstream media on how the undocumented enter the US and other countries.

Foreigners who come by car or plane with a passport have entered legally with the required passport, visa, shots, and other necessary documents, and hence are not "undocumented". 

We use the term "undocumented" to refer to people who are not here legally. Guess what - many who are desperately poor and uneducated rely on smugglers because they lack the means to get a passport, buy a bus ticket, whatever.

And many others really do come here with passports and visas then stay, working under the table in jobs where their working status isn't scrutinized too closely.

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

This is a "crisis" of our own making. We won't let people easily register themselves or get jobs, then get angry because they need help.

As for the quote "I like to chat with people who tell me they are conservative, Republican, whatever. I tell them I am pretty liberal, but I promise not to argue if they just tell me what is most important to them and why. I'll just listen.", we're a democracy and do not have to explain or justify our choices. I would not have voted for Biden, so wrote to our elected representatives repeatedly as to why I wouldn't vote for him. (Google "the audacity of grope", which I saw on live TV almost a decade ago.)

Here in our city, people were unhappy with the millions of dollars going to Israel and Ukraine, despite the fact that our city has had drastic budget cuts. One in 8 children in public schools are homeless which makes it hard for people to support the Democrats. Furthermore, Trump has a large following among certain ethnic groups, as noted in this article:

The neighborhood where Democratic turnout dropped the most in terms of percentage change was Borough Park, an Orthodox Jewish enclave in Brooklyn that voted overwhelmingly for Mr. Trump. While support for Mr. Trump increased only slightly, from about 22,200 votes in 2020 to 22,700 in 2024, turnout for the Democratic candidate dropped 46 percent, from about 7,600 votes in 2020 to about 4,100 in 2024.

See also the comments in the Ethicist columm where most of the commenters tell the poster that his mother has the right to vote for whoever she chooses.

The latest article on Trump and New York:

Trump Won More of New York's Votes. Did He Win More of Its Love, Too?
The city tolerated Donald J. Trump, and then it loathed him. Now, some New Yorkers have begun to embrace him. The Kid from Queens couldn't be happier.

Articles are behind paywalls, unfortunately. I've used up my free shares, alas.

Because Republicans are so eager to build public housing to house the homeless?

Or raise taxes to cover public services?

Or stand with our NATO allies when warmongering countries decide to invade others?

[Langue_doc]

How Democrats Lost Their Base and Their Message
Donald Trump's populist pitch bumped Democrats off their traditional place in American politics.

The first few paragraphs--see non-paywalled link for the entire article:

It has long been clear that the rise of Donald J. Trump meant the end of the Republican Party as we once knew it.

It has belatedly become clear that his rise may have meant the end of the Democratic Party as we knew it as well.

After three Trump elections, almost every traditional Democratic constituency has swung to the right. In fact, Mr. Trump has made larger gains among Black, Hispanic, Asian American and young voters in his three campaigns since 2016 than he has among white voters without a college degree, according to New York Times estimates. In each case, Mr. Trump fared better than any Republican in decades.

I wouldn't presume to lecture people about their voting choices. We are a democracy, which gives us the right to vote for whoever is on the ballot. Democrats appear not to have learned the lessons from the 2016 loss or this one. Several registered democrats who were already undecided about Biden's performance decided not to vote for him or the Democrats once they learned that Biden has been almost out of action since 2023, and that his wife and son were running the country. Harris couldn't distance herself from Biden's failed policies or even address the cost of living issues, hence people not turning out in large numbers to vote for her. This time around, unlike the situation in 2016, Democrats lost because their usual supporters stayed home or wrote in a candidate not on the ballot.

As for discussing the elections in the classroom, that's a no-no for me because students have the right to vote for either party. The only time I brought up elections in the classroom was in Fall 2008, when students in my composition class had to write an essay on one of the candidates at the city, state, or federal level. I assured them that their essays would be assessed on the organization, argumentation, sentence structure and related rubrics, and not on their political affiliations. I also gave them an assignment where they had to listen to a speech, and discuss it in the next class. A student who would sit in the back row with the most disgruntled expression I've seen, had her hand up as soon as I entered the classroom, because she wanted to tell everyone that when she was doing her homework, her mother who happened to be in the next room heard the speech, came rushing in to reminisce about the long-ago election, which made student realize that elections were important. Student and mom had a nice discussion about elections, current and past. Another student wrote in her essay about how proud she was to be able to take part in an election where Obama was a candidate. This was at an institution in a heavily republican area.

[jimbogumbo]

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

The concern above has the unfortunate effect of MAGA painting all undocumented with that brush. A very large number of those folks work hard here, particularly in agriculture, construction and service positions. If they magically go away we as a nation are in deep shit, because like it or not, we've created an economy dependent on their labor.

[marshwiggle]

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

The concern above has the unfortunate effect of MAGA painting all undocumented with that brush. A very large number of those folks work hard here, particularly in agriculture, construction and service positions. If they magically go away we as a nation are in deep shit, because like it or not, we've created an economy dependent on their labor.

So why have governments not imposed heavy fines on companies employing individuals who aren't eligible to work? Other countries that have those kinds of laws have much less of a problem with illegal immigrants, because the economy doesn't depend on them. One would suppose that the Democrats would be in favour of this because it would make it much harder for these people to be exploited.

[jimbogumbo]

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

The concern above has the unfortunate effect of MAGA painting all undocumented with that brush. A very large number of those folks work hard here, particularly in agriculture, construction and service positions. If they magically go away we as a nation are in deep shit, because like it or not, we've created an economy dependent on their labor.

So why have governments not imposed heavy fines on companies employing individuals who aren't eligible to work? Other countries that have those kinds of laws have much less of a problem with illegal immigrants, because the economy doesn't depend on them. One would suppose that the Democrats would be in favour of this because it would make it much harder for these people to be exploited.

Well, that's kind of obvious in the US. For years the source of cheap labor was allowed (wink wink nudge nudge) because of the business lobby. Now, there just are not enough workers. Unless Congress comes up with some pathway for citizenship for these workers that doesn't involve shipping them out and reentering we're screwed. And, it is worth noting, that Congress has failed to act in ways that support legal immigration for any of the categories of worker I mentioned. If you are a high tech worker we do it, but if you pick tomatoes or hammer nails we don't.

[spork]

[...]

And, it is worth noting, that Congress has failed to act in ways that support legal immigration for any of the categories of worker I mentioned. If you are a high tech worker we do it, but if you pick tomatoes or hammer nails we don't.

Even the H1-B program, which hypothetically facilitates the immigration of high-tech workers, is fucked up -- because of Congressional inaction and industry lobbying.

In sum, our government does not prosecute the executives and shareholders who profit from undocumented workers because the former is beholden to the latter.

[ciao_yall]

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

The concern above has the unfortunate effect of MAGA painting all undocumented with that brush. A very large number of those folks work hard here, particularly in agriculture, construction and service positions. If they magically go away we as a nation are in deep shit, because like it or not, we've created an economy dependent on their labor.

So why have governments not imposed heavy fines on companies employing individuals who aren't eligible to work? Other countries that have those kinds of laws have much less of a problem with illegal immigrants, because the economy doesn't depend on them. One would suppose that the Democrats would be in favour of this because it would make it much harder for these people to be exploited.

Because people freak out about OPEN BORDERS!

[marshwiggle]

The legitimate concern is that undocumented people are allowed to illegally stream through the border and are given food and housing, and in the case of our city, debit cards, all at the expense of taxpayers, several of whom are finding it difficult to feed their families given the rapidly rising cost of food and utilities. Furthermore, immediate relatives of naturalized citizens have to wait, sometimes for a decade or more, to get their visas to enter the US. Asylum seekers are required to seek asylum in the next country; the migrants we're seeing are economic migrants who want a better life, but cannot legally just walk into another country.

The concern above has the unfortunate effect of MAGA painting all undocumented with that brush. A very large number of those folks work hard here, particularly in agriculture, construction and service positions. If they magically go away we as a nation are in deep shit, because like it or not, we've created an economy dependent on their labor.

So why have governments not imposed heavy fines on companies employing individuals who aren't eligible to work? Other countries that have those kinds of laws have much less of a problem with illegal immigrants, because the economy doesn't depend on them. One would suppose that the Democrats would be in favour of this because it would make it much harder for these people to be exploited.

Well, that's kind of obvious in the US. For years the source of cheap labor was allowed (wink wink nudge nudge) because of the business lobby. Now, there just are not enough workers. Unless Congress comes up with some pathway for citizenship for these workers that doesn't involve shipping them out and reentering we're screwed. And, it is worth noting, that Congress has failed to act in ways that support legal immigration for any of the categories of worker I mentioned. If you are a high tech worker we do it, but if you pick tomatoes or hammer nails we don't.

So that would be just Republicans in Congress, right? Democrats would have had no part in that.

Because people freak out about OPEN BORDERS!

How would open borders do anything but make matters worse??? Jobs aren't going to magically appear, and the people with the least education, language skills, etc. are always going to be easiest to exploit.

[dismalist]

Illegal immigration is a clear example for rule by decree. There were no majorities to be had in Congress for liberalizing immigration laws [which I heartily support, by the way]. So the President, or his surrogates, did an end run around Congress and promulgated non-enforcement of the law at the border. This is surely the work of some interest group in the Democratic party, no matter how small.

People do not like the abrogation of the rule of law.