Letter of rec question for troublesome student

[ciao_yall]

Maybe this is a good time to talk to the student.

"You want to be a teacher. Yet you will be in a classroom with students who are, or whose family members are...

"How do you plan to deal with them? Talk to them? Support them socially and educationally? Their personal lives will come up as a matter of course in your daily interactions.

"Before I can encourage you to enter this profession, I need to know that you have truly thought through what it really means. Otherwise I'm not doing you, or you future students and families any favors."

Then, see how he reacts.

[Ruralguy]

I don't think we should be amateur psychologists, but I think we can (carefully) suggest counseling, even when someone isn't an immediate danger to themselves and others.

Whether or not we are or are not life coaches probably depends on the school's mission. At a SLAC like mine,
we are given carte blanche to be pretty close to life coaches, although we are expected to refer out specific sorts of problems to experts. And we aren't expected to be every student's life coach. But we are expected to care and do the most we can within our sphere of competence.

[RatGuy]

If this were me, I'd tell the student that i might not be the best reference, but I'd agree if the student insisted.

I have had few students (less than 5 in 10 years I've been here) who have had similar stances in class. For example, the most recent of these believes that genocide of indigenous peoples is justified when committed in the name of Christianity, that Douglass is clearly exaggerating when he describes the cruelty of Christian slaveowners, that domestic abuse is justified if the victim refuses to leave the situation. If this student insisted on the LOR, I'd write about his class performance in general terms, such as "student has strong opinions regarding historical events and his participation in class discussion hinged on defending these opinions." But I'd neither offer specifics nor would I editorialize. This goes double if the student would be able to see the contents of my letter.

Sometimes these students are seeking attention, sometimes parroting things they don't understand, and sometimes emboldened by certain policies. But I also believe that the kid in my above example would be unable to make it through the interview process without voicing something similar. Other applicants would look good in contrast, or the employer may not care about such views

[jerseyjay]

Thanks everybody. I will probably just tell the student that I will write him a letter, but that I will need to take into account various aspects of his performance, including his interaction with others.

To deal with some questions: do I want him to have a chance. As his professor, yes, I would like him to have a chance to succeed. I believe that he has his good qualities--not just because I believe, abstractly, that everybody has good qualities, but because I have seen these good qualities. However, they are mixed up with some not good qualities. In his defense, he has improved over the last several years, but he is still problematic. As a educational professional, and somebody who has children in the public schools (though not the ones he is applying to teach in), I am not sure he is a good fit for the classroom.

Should he be told this? Well, the teachers' education program did this and tried to weed him out. But he meets all the academic requirements to graduate with a degree in education, so his response was that the teachers' education program (whose directors are women) was out to get him and unqualified and threatened to sue them. And to be fair to him, the teachers' education program was out "to get him", and probably did so in a ham-handed way, even if their underlying rationale made sense.

Should he be counseled? Probably. But not only am I unqualified to diagnose autism or any other learning/mental/medical condition--I am a historian!--based on discussion with him, he has probably been diagnosed outside of my university and does not agree with the diagnosis.

Would he make through the interview process without saying something off? Probably not (especially if the interviewer is a woman). But since many of students come from this school system, and many of our graduates teach in it, I would like to maintain a modicum of credibility with them.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts.

   

[spork]

[...]

He has argued that Japanese people are uniquely and inherently martial and hence anti-Japanese camps in Word War II were acceptable; that women are less intelligent than men; that women professors are worse than men professors; he has argued that different sects of his religion are not really moral and other religious groups from his homeland are wrong. He has argued that strong peoples have a duty and right to dominate weaker peoples.

[...]

Given the statements I've bolded, if he's seeking K-12 jobs in the USA, he's a lawsuit waiting to happen for any school district that hires him. He should NOT be in a classroom. Nor should anyone recommend him for such a position.

[apl68]

[...]

He has argued that Japanese people are uniquely and inherently martial and hence anti-Japanese camps in Word War II were acceptable; that women are less intelligent than men; that women professors are worse than men professors; he has argued that different sects of his religion are not really moral and other religious groups from his homeland are wrong. He has argued that strong peoples have a duty and right to dominate weaker peoples.

[...]

Given the statements I've bolded, if he's seeking K-12 jobs in the USA, he's a lawsuit waiting to happen for any school district that hires him. He should NOT be in a classroom. Nor should anyone recommend him for such a position.

If his issues are as acute as jerseyjay indicates, he's probably not going to make it through the interview process, for this and other reasons. 

[apl68]

Thanks everybody. I will probably just tell the student that I will write him a letter, but that I will need to take into account various aspects of his performance, including his interaction with others.

To deal with some questions: do I want him to have a chance. As his professor, yes, I would like him to have a chance to succeed. I believe that he has his good qualities--not just because I believe, abstractly, that everybody has good qualities, but because I have seen these good qualities. However, they are mixed up with some not good qualities. In his defense, he has improved over the last several years, but he is still problematic. As a educational professional, and somebody who has children in the public schools (though not the ones he is applying to teach in), I am not sure he is a good fit for the classroom.

Should he be told this? Well, the teachers' education program did this and tried to weed him out. But he meets all the academic requirements to graduate with a degree in education, so his response was that the teachers' education program (whose directors are women) was out to get him and unqualified and threatened to sue them. And to be fair to him, the teachers' education program was out "to get him", and probably did so in a ham-handed way, even if their underlying rationale made sense.

Should he be counseled? Probably. But not only am I unqualified to diagnose autism or any other learning/mental/medical condition--I am a historian!--based on discussion with him, he has probably been diagnosed outside of my university and does not agree with the diagnosis.

Would he make through the interview process without saying something off? Probably not (especially if the interviewer is a woman). But since many of students come from this school system, and many of our graduates teach in it, I would like to maintain a modicum of credibility with them.

Again, thanks for all your thoughts.

   

Sorry you're having to deal with such a difficult student.  I've known some of those people who have their good points, and have great potential, and yet mix this with some unignorably egregious issues.  They seem unable to listen to reason, and think they're being persecuted when others are trying to help them to straighten out.

"Do you see a person wise in his own eyes?  There is more hope for a fool than for him."

[the_geneticist]

Let's hope the schools use a "please rank this applicant" survey.  Those always include questions about how they work with others, their maturity, how they deal with failures, etc.

Sounds like this person has no business in a classroom.  I bet their cover letter will make that apparent, probably won't make it to the interview stage.

[kaysixteen]

What exactly did the ed program women do that made them 'out to get him'?

[jerseyjay]

What exactly did the ed program women do that made them 'out to get him'?

It is my understanding that they told him, in no uncertain terms, that he would never become a teacher, and that he should never become a teacher.

[Hegemony]

Frankly, he sounds like a nightmare. He's difficult and problematic and racist/sexist and when told that he's not suitable for a teaching job, he threatens to sue? Would you be happy to hire someone like that?

Teaching is so important. Problematic teachers can turn a child off to education forever, even apart from the other kinds of harm they can do. This guy needs to go into a different profession. I think it might count as professional malfeasance to imply that he can do this job.

[apl68]

What exactly did the ed program women do that made them 'out to get him'?

It is my understanding that they told him, in no uncertain terms, that he would never become a teacher, and that he should never become a teacher.

Unfortunately those for whom the indirect approach to criticism and bad news doesn't work tend to resist the more direct approach as well.

[dlehman]

"Well, the teachers' education program did this and tried to weed him out."

That sentence caught my attention.  From my experience, teachers education programs include evaluation material related to a person's ability to be a classroom teacher, not just their academic performance.  It seems like your institution's evaluation process is lacking.  Alternatively, perhaps they tried to get rid of this person - for reasons they shouldn't be using - but none of this person's behavior warranted their removal from the program.  It seems to me that the latter would tell you to keep your concerns to yourself and just write about the things that are actually part of the evaluation process your department uses.  If that process is the problem, then it is a more difficult issue - it puts you in the place of dealing with something that should not have happened.  I'd be inclined to bow out in that case.

[kaysixteen]

Awright, some of the stuff the OP has described do seem very problematic for being a teacher.  I am assuming that in fact the OP has actually heard the kid say these problematic things, or seen him put such views in writing.  It would not be acceptable to take the word of some (almost certainly female) student who said she had heard him say these things. 

And now, well, ahem, to the teacher training program.  Like it or not, k12 ed in this country, esp public k12 ed, has become an overwhelmingly female dominated profession, and many of the women in it are less than fond of, well, traditional American masculinity, some even more or less hate men/ boys, or at least view femininity as superior to masculinity.  Overt prejudice against men/  male teaching applicants is common, though not thankfully as common as it is in American librarianship.

[Kron3007]

Awright, some of the stuff the OP has described do seem very problematic for being a teacher.  I am assuming that in fact the OP has actually heard the kid say these problematic things, or seen him put such views in writing.  It would not be acceptable to take the word of some (almost certainly female) student who said she had heard him say these things. 

And now, well, ahem, to the teacher training program.  Like it or not, k12 ed in this country, esp public k12 ed, has become an overwhelmingly female dominated profession, and many of the women in it are less than fond of, well, traditional American masculinity, some even more or less hate men/ boys, or at least view femininity as superior to masculinity.  Overt prejudice against men/  male teaching applicants is common, though not thankfully as common as it is in American librarianship.

Are you actually the student asking for the LOR here?