HLC is considering degrees with fewer than 120 credits

[ciao_yall]

[..]

ways of knowing

[...]

According to the cognitive psychologists, one of those completely meaningless phrases like "critical thinking."

I recently attended a social gathering, with a college dance professor sitting to my left and a retired K-12 teacher sitting to my right. When they started earnestly discussing learning styles, I had to get up and leave to avoid laughing out loud.

I meant it more in terms of how different fields approach problems. I worked with a lot of business majors who were really good at finding the bottom line. My political science major made me very sensitive to power and interest. Engineers were good at breaking problems into precise units.

Historians, art majors, anthropologists all bring their own lenses to the world.

[treeoflife]

The 90 credit, three year model is the common framework for the European schools. This model will become more common in the next few years for reasons which are clear to all of us. The higher education industry has earned what is coming, a correction was bound to happen.

[apl68]

Can't link to it due to paywalls, but the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette announced this past week that Henderson State University will now be offering six-semester degrees for some programs.  Since they've already effectively all but eliminated their liberal arts offerings, I don't know that it will change all that much there at this point.

Wonder if this means that their library will eventually surplus large numbers of books they'll no longer need?  I'd love to snag some of their titles....

[Hibush]

The three year degree is different from the four-year bachelors, but it is also different from a two-year associates. I suspect it will compete more for students with the latter than the former.

The main reason is that it is pitched to students who don't want, or would not succeed in, a traditional bachelors program. Indeed the ones at BYU-I and Ensign are bringing in new students.

I can imagine schools that are not suceeding in filling their classes with four-year students decide to switch over to this model if they have the right geographic conditions. That option is preferable to closing. The other four-year schools will benefit.

[dismalist]

The three year degree is different from the four-year bachelors, but it is also different from a two-year associates. I suspect it will compete more for students with the latter than the former.

The main reason is that it is pitched to students who don't want, or would not succeed in, a traditional bachelors program. Indeed the ones at BYU-I and Ensign are bringing in new students.

I can imagine schools that are not succeeding in filling their classes with four-year students decide to switch over to this model if they have the right geographic conditions. That option is preferable to closing. The other four-year schools will benefit.

As a matter of logic, the three year degree is a substitute for the existing two year degree and the existing four year degree. I don't see how any four year degree will benefit from the new competition. Of course, some students will!

[Mobius]

It's too soon, but I'd love to see data on job outcomes for the 90-credit grads compared to the traditional bachelor's degree at BYU-I.

[Hibush]

t's too soon, but I'd love to see data on job outcomes for the 90-credit grads compared to the traditional bachelor's degree at BYU-I.

I don't think it is a realistic comparison because the student base is so different. Traditional BYI-I students are a year or so older than elsewhere because they have done a mission. They have largely been on a college track through high school.

BYU-I students in the 90-credit program are "those who have not felt higher education was a viable option for them." Demographically, they "The average online student is 33 years old, takes two classes at a time, works full time and supports a family."

The relevant comparison is with those who don't go back to school.
In fact, if you did compare job outcomes post graduation, the 90-credit alumni will likely be far ahead because they have at least a decade of work experience more than the traditional ones.

[dismalist]

t's too soon, but I'd love to see data on job outcomes for the 90-credit grads compared to the traditional bachelor's degree at BYU-I.

I don't think it is a realistic comparison because the student base is so different. Traditional BYI-I students are a year or so older than elsewhere because they have done a mission. They have largely been on a college track through high school.

BYU-I students in the 90-credit program are "those who have not felt higher education was a viable option for them." Demographically, they "The average online student is 33 years old, takes two classes at a time, works full time and supports a family."

The relevant comparison is with those who don't go back to school.
In fact, if you did compare job outcomes post graduation, the 90-credit alumni will likely be far ahead because they have at least a decade of work experience more than the traditional ones.

The quoted article is a gem: Talk about content control and market segmentation!

The Gen Ed Jobs Program for faculty stays. It's the electives that go. Choice for thee, but not for me.

It's all on-line so that there is minimal substitution out of a 4-year degree program. And, it's limited in subject matter.

One can't do a better job of making the three year option unattractive. That's one purpose of accreditation.

[MarathonRunner]

In many provinces in Canada, there have been three year general degrees and four year honours degrees, for many disciplines that don't require external accreditation, for years. Not new at all. I don't know of many associate degree programs in Canada, however. Accredited programs, like engineering, nursing, dietetics, etc., have always been four year degrees, but a three year general BA or BSc degree has been offered in many provinces in other disciplines. I don't see the problem. Quebec, of course, has CEGEP, which is its own unique thing.

[dismalist]

In many provinces in Canada, there have been three year general degrees and four year honours degrees, for many disciplines that don't require external accreditation, for years. Not new at all. I don't know of many associate degree programs in Canada, however. Accredited programs, like engineering, nursing, dietetics, etc., have always been four year degrees, but a three year general BA or BSc degree has been offered in many provinces in other disciplines. I don't see the problem. Quebec, of course, has CEGEP, which is its own unique thing.

May God and Adam Smith bless Canada!

[quasihumanist]

The purpose of higher education is not about facts and figures, it's about ways of knowing and understanding that stick with someone long after the details are forgotten.

At the selective universities most of us went to, students did learn different ways of knowing in their general education classes.

At the average university, the only way of knowing that most students are capable of is believing what someone else tells them, and most students learn nothing from general education classes other than trivia they will soon forget.

[Wahoo Redux]

The purpose of higher education is not about facts and figures, it's about ways of knowing and understanding that stick with someone long after the details are forgotten.

At the selective universities most of us went to, students did learn different ways of knowing in their general education classes.

At the average university, the only way of knowing that most students are capable of is believing what someone else tells them, and most students learn nothing from general education classes other than trivia they will soon forget.

I tend to be sarcastic, but I don't think that is true.

The kids that go to the lowly-ranked, low-prestige universities tend to be mediocre to the just plain bad, in my experience (and I've had a fair amount of this particular demographic), but those that actually struggle their way to their degrees show marked and sometimes profound advancement----at least in my experience.

Somewhere I saw some graphs that illustrated where your low-performing college student started on the knowledge-scale when compared to your average elite / Ivy student (although I do not know the metrics used).  The elite students started fairly high on the scale and landed higher on the knowledge scale than the mediocre students in the end but they did not gain as much overall, while the mediocre students had a much steeper degree of knowledge-acquisition, while they still to not equal their Ivy peers. Your average dum-dum had a lot father to go, but overall they went farther in their own mileau than the Ivys went in theirs. The mediocre students still on average ended up lower on the scale ("dumber") than their Ivy counterparts, but comparitivly they learned more.

Has anybody heard of this study or know about it?  I don't know what to Google to find it.

[ciao_yall]

Y'all sound a bit classist, don't you think?

[Wahoo Redux]

Y'all sound a bit classist, don't you think?

Oh for Pete's sake.

[Mobius]

It's a jobs program for adjuncts. FT faculty aren't involved in many of these courses.

t's too soon, but I'd love to see data on job outcomes for the 90-credit grads compared to the traditional bachelor's degree at BYU-I.

I don't think it is a realistic comparison because the student base is so different. Traditional BYI-I students are a year or so older than elsewhere because they have done a mission. They have largely been on a college track through high school.

BYU-I students in the 90-credit program are "those who have not felt higher education was a viable option for them." Demographically, they "The average online student is 33 years old, takes two classes at a time, works full time and supports a family."

The relevant comparison is with those who don't go back to school.
In fact, if you did compare job outcomes post graduation, the 90-credit alumni will likely be far ahead because they have at least a decade of work experience more than the traditional ones.

The quoted article is a gem: Talk about content control and market segmentation!

The Gen Ed Jobs Program for faculty stays. It's the electives that go. Choice for thee, but not for me.

It's all on-line so that there is minimal substitution out of a 4-year degree program. And, it's limited in subject matter.

One can't do a better job of making the three year option unattractive. That's one purpose of accreditation.