Canadian Election Thread, 2019 edition

[Parasaurolophus]

So?


One thing I'd like to know is why Michael Adamson leaked the photo to an American media outlet. It's not like there's a dearth of them in Canada (especially not a dearth of Conservative ones, even if you buy the usual "CBC suxorz" line). I hope someone asks.



For my part, in my brand new riding, I'm deciding between the Green and NDP candidates. Currently, I'm leaning harder towards the Greens, largely because I'd like to see them have a bigger role on our political scene, and I think that this is a likely time for it (plus, I live in an area where they have a real chance). But I could swing back to the NDP over the course of the campaign.

[Kron3007]

I live in a riding that is heavily conservative, making my vote essentially meaningless.  I was really hoping Justin would follow through with his promise of electoral reform so I would have a voice, but that didn't happen and my vote remains moot.  That being said, I have been voting green for a while now and will do so again this year.  I know it does nothing for them in any real sense, but at least it shows support at the popular vote level and they always make a lot of sense when you hear them interviewed etc.

[traductio]

I live in Canada but don't (yet) get to vote. (If it's a Liberal government that maintains immigration laws as they currently are, I'll be eligible to apply for citizenship in about a year. If it's a Conservative government that takes Harper's approach, as I vaguely remember, I've got a couple years after that.)

That said, if I could vote, I'd want to vote Green, but I live in a riding where strategic voting makes sense, and I'd vote Liberal. But possibly with a clothes-pin on my nose for performance value.

[kaysixteen]

For us Yankees who are sadly stuck with a two party duopoly, remind us what the differences are between the Greens and the NDP?

[secundem_artem]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html

Did Justin do a stupid thing 20 years ago?  Certainly seems like it.  Should the stupid thing carry the political equivalent to the death penalty.  IMHO no.  Justin is not his father (I grew up in the era of Trudeaumania v 1.0) and I suspect he's stronger on imagery than policy.  But flaws and all, I'd offer he's not as bad as the hit piece in the times makes him out to be

[Catherder]

For us Yankees who are sadly stuck with a two party duopoly, remind us what the differences are between the Greens and the NDP?

The NDP was founded in 1960 as an amalgamation of the social democratic CCF and the Canadian trade union movement. Its platform has always included comprehensive universal health insurance, benefits for wage labour, workers' rights, guaranteed annual income--in short emphasis on social economic welfare and justice.  More recently it has added environmental policy.

Historically it has formed provincial governments in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia, Ontario and Alberta. In 2011 it managed for the first time to become the official opposition in Ottawa.  Trudeau's election in 2015 knocked it back to third party status in the federal parliament. The NDP's current federal leader is Jagmeet Singh, the first person of colour to lead a federal party in Canada. Human rights, immigration and the environment, plus expansion of national health insurance and student debt forgiveness are part of its election platform.

The Green Party was founded in the 1980s with a much smaller membership and platform. It might be fairer if one of its supporters expanded on this. In this election, for the first time, there has been some nastiness between the NDP and the Greens, and I'm very much on the side of the former.

[marshwiggle]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html

Did Justin do a stupid thing 20 years ago?  Certainly seems like it.  Should the stupid thing carry the political equivalent to the death penalty.  IMHO no.  Justin is not his father (I grew up in the era of Trudeaumania v 1.0) and I suspect he's stronger on imagery than policy.  But flaws and all, I'd offer he's not as bad as the hit piece in the times makes him out to be

But it's exactly what he deserves. All his smug, self-righteous virtue signalling about how HE's so much better than all of THOSE people. It's very entertaining.

I've voted Green for several elections, federal and provincial. I don't agree with everything they propose, but the other parties have always been kind of "utilitarian" about the environment; something to talk about during a campaign, but drop when it suits them.

I DON'T consider it a "wasted" vote, because as the Greens consistently get around 10% of the vote, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the other parties can't afford to give up on that big a chunk of voters. It's not coincidence that the other parties are gradually getting a bit more serious about it.

The big question for me this time around is whether the NDP will fall behind the Greens. They've become simply the "party of the disgruntled" with a fairly negative message, while the Greens have a more optimistic tone. I think if the Greens pass the NDP, the latter may never recover. (Their zenith came under Jack Layton, who had a much more positive approach.)

[Kron3007]

For us Yankees who are sadly stuck with a two party duopoly, remind us what the differences are between the Greens and the NDP?

The NDP was founded in 1960 as an amalgamation of the social democratic CCF and the Canadian trade union movement. Its platform has always included comprehensive universal health insurance, benefits for wage labour, workers' rights, guaranteed annual income--in short emphasis on social economic welfare and justice.  More recently it has added environmental policy.

Historically it has formed provincial governments in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia, Ontario and Alberta. In 2011 it managed for the first time to become the official opposition in Ottawa.  Trudeau's election in 2015 knocked it back to third party status in the federal parliament. The NDP's current federal leader is Jagmeet Singh, the first person of colour to lead a federal party in Canada. Human rights, immigration and the environment, plus expansion of national health insurance and student debt forgiveness are part of its election platform.

The Green Party was founded in the 1980s with a much smaller membership and platform. It might be fairer if one of its supporters expanded on this. In this election, for the first time, there has been some nastiness between the NDP and the Greens, and I'm very much on the side of the former.

On paper they are quite similar, both are very progressive and have similar policies but I would say that the green party has a stronger focus on the environment and is more democratic as a party.  For example, they mandate that MPs put the interest of their riding above leader or party interests rather than pushing them to vote along party lines (this could change if they got into power though...).  What first attracted me to the greens is that they had their policies clearly posted (most parties don't) on their website and members had the ability to provide input on each item, presumably meaning that they would alter them based on the beliefs of their voters.  This just felt very democratic and I liked that.  Also, despite some areas where I disagree with them, their general philosophy is very much in line with mine, so it seemed like a good fit.

Some of my issues with the NDP are that there are several examples when they get into power and do not following through with their stated beliefs.  For example, they were all for conservation of old growth forests until they got into power in BC, then out came the chainsaws.  Even worse, during the last election they swung their platform to the centre in an attempt to win votes but the liberals swung their policies to the left and won the election easily.  To me, these are just signs that they pander and I don't feel they would implement much of what they say they would if they won.  This could also be true if the greens ever get into power, but for now I will give them the benefit of the doubt. 

One of the main problems with the Canadian system though, is that we currently have 4 main parties, one is conservative while the other three lean to the left to varying degrees.  This ends up splitting the liberal vote between three parties such that the Conservatives have a much better chance of winning than they should based on Canadian beliefs.  As with the American system, we end up with majority governments with less than 40% of the popular vote, which is ridiculous.  This also leads to strategic voting, and I am convinced that the greens would do a lot better if not for this.   

[secundem_artem]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html

Did Justin do a stupid thing 20 years ago?  Certainly seems like it.  Should the stupid thing carry the political equivalent to the death penalty.  IMHO no.  Justin is not his father (I grew up in the era of Trudeaumania v 1.0) and I suspect he's stronger on imagery than policy.  But flaws and all, I'd offer he's not as bad as the hit piece in the times makes him out to be

But it's exactly what he deserves. All his smug, self-righteous virtue signalling about how HE's so much better than all of THOSE people. It's very entertaining.

I've voted Green for several elections, federal and provincial. I don't agree with everything they propose, but the other parties have always been kind of "utilitarian" about the environment; something to talk about during a campaign, but drop when it suits them.

I DON'T consider it a "wasted" vote, because as the Greens consistently get around 10% of the vote, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the other parties can't afford to give up on that big a chunk of voters. It's not coincidence that the other parties are gradually getting a bit more serious about it.

The big question for me this time around is whether the NDP will fall behind the Greens. They've become simply the "party of the disgruntled" with a fairly negative message, while the Greens have a more optimistic tone. I think if the Greens pass the NDP, the latter may never recover. (Their zenith came under Jack Layton, who had a much more positive approach.)

We were living in Toronto in 1990 when David Peterson (Lib - Premier) called a snap election.  The Libs lost and Bob Rae (then NDP, now Lib i understand) found himself the premier of the biggest economy in Canada.  Historically, the NDP had acted as a sort of "conscience" for the party in power.  They seemed to be able to stop Lib and Con governments from running wild but never seriously had a chance of winning power.

And then they did.  Poor Bob Rae had espoused all of these wonderful social democratic policies and, once in office, had no way or money to implement them.  I was working in a hospital at the time and all of us had to take unpaid "Rae days" to try and bring some balance back to the provincial budget.

So... vote Green or NDP or libertarian as you wish.  But in my experience all the fine rhetoric in the world runs into a propeller blade when it's time to lead a government.  Campaign in poetry, govern in prose as they say.

[ciao_yall]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html

Did Justin do a stupid thing 20 years ago?  Certainly seems like it.  Should the stupid thing carry the political equivalent to the death penalty.  IMHO no.  Justin is not his father (I grew up in the era of Trudeaumania v 1.0) and I suspect he's stronger on imagery than policy.  But flaws and all, I'd offer he's not as bad as the hit piece in the times makes him out to be

But it's exactly what he deserves. All his smug, self-righteous virtue signalling about how HE's so much better than all of THOSE people. It's very entertaining.

I've voted Green for several elections, federal and provincial. I don't agree with everything they propose, but the other parties have always been kind of "utilitarian" about the environment; something to talk about during a campaign, but drop when it suits them.

I DON'T consider it a "wasted" vote, because as the Greens consistently get around 10% of the vote, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the other parties can't afford to give up on that big a chunk of voters. It's not coincidence that the other parties are gradually getting a bit more serious about it.

The big question for me this time around is whether the NDP will fall behind the Greens. They've become simply the "party of the disgruntled" with a fairly negative message,

Because for the NDP to win, they have to get a large group of people to change their votes. Anger is a powerful motivating force in getting people to make a change.

while the Greens have a more optimistic tone. I think if the Greens pass the NDP, the latter may never recover. (Their zenith came under Jack Layton, who had a much more positive approach.)

Greens can afford to be happy-go-lucky and talk about what they want because they know they aren't going to win. (See above.)

[Kron3007]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opinion/trudeau-brownface-canada.html

Did Justin do a stupid thing 20 years ago?  Certainly seems like it.  Should the stupid thing carry the political equivalent to the death penalty.  IMHO no.  Justin is not his father (I grew up in the era of Trudeaumania v 1.0) and I suspect he's stronger on imagery than policy.  But flaws and all, I'd offer he's not as bad as the hit piece in the times makes him out to be

But it's exactly what he deserves. All his smug, self-righteous virtue signalling about how HE's so much better than all of THOSE people. It's very entertaining.

I've voted Green for several elections, federal and provincial. I don't agree with everything they propose, but the other parties have always been kind of "utilitarian" about the environment; something to talk about during a campaign, but drop when it suits them.

I DON'T consider it a "wasted" vote, because as the Greens consistently get around 10% of the vote, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the other parties can't afford to give up on that big a chunk of voters. It's not coincidence that the other parties are gradually getting a bit more serious about it.

The big question for me this time around is whether the NDP will fall behind the Greens. They've become simply the "party of the disgruntled" with a fairly negative message, while the Greens have a more optimistic tone. I think if the Greens pass the NDP, the latter may never recover. (Their zenith came under Jack Layton, who had a much more positive approach.)

We were living in Toronto in 1990 when David Peterson (Lib - Premier) called a snap election.  The Libs lost and Bob Rae (then NDP, now Lib i understand) found himself the premier of the biggest economy in Canada.  Historically, the NDP had acted as a sort of "conscience" for the party in power.  They seemed to be able to stop Lib and Con governments from running wild but never seriously had a chance of winning power.

And then they did.  Poor Bob Rae had espoused all of these wonderful social democratic policies and, once in office, had no way or money to implement them.  I was working in a hospital at the time and all of us had to take unpaid "Rae days" to try and bring some balance back to the provincial budget.

So... vote Green or NDP or libertarian as you wish.  But in my experience all the fine rhetoric in the world runs into a propeller blade when it's time to lead a government.  Campaign in poetry, govern in prose as they say.

Everyone uses Ray as an example of the NDP's inherent failure, but this is flawed without some context.  This was a little before I was paying attention, but from my understanding he came to power as the ship was sinking, so there would have been pain regardless of who was in power.  Perhaps Ray messed up, I dont know if his approach was the best, but it is not completely fair to blame him for the economy he was handed.

If you take a broader look at NDP governments across Canada, you will see that they are actually relatively good at balancing budgets compared to the other parties.  It is ironic, but in both the US and Canada, conservative governments tend to generate more debt...   

[marshwiggle]

We were living in Toronto in 1990 when David Peterson (Lib - Premier) called a snap election.  The Libs lost and Bob Rae (then NDP, now Lib i understand) found himself the premier of the biggest economy in Canada.  Historically, the NDP had acted as a sort of "conscience" for the party in power.  They seemed to be able to stop Lib and Con governments from running wild but never seriously had a chance of winning power.

And then they did.  Poor Bob Rae had espoused all of these wonderful social democratic policies and, once in office, had no way or money to implement them.  I was working in a hospital at the time and all of us had to take unpaid "Rae days" to try and bring some balance back to the provincial budget.

So... vote Green or NDP or libertarian as you wish.  But in my experience all the fine rhetoric in the world runs into a propeller blade when it's time to lead a government.  Campaign in poetry, govern in prose as they say.

Everyone uses Ray as an example of the NDP's inherent failure, but this is flawed without some context.  This was a little before I was paying attention, but from my understanding he came to power as the ship was sinking, so there would have been pain regardless of who was in power.  Perhaps Ray messed up, I dont know if his approach was the best, but it is not completely fair to blame him for the economy he was handed.

Of course not, but he got hoist on his own petard, by promising unions pie in the sky, which he couldn't actually deliver. (And if he'd been honest, he never would have promised as much.)  I enjoyed the fact that it was the NDP government that had to stand up to the unions that they had courted with big promises when reality hit them in the face.

[secundem_artem]

We were living in Toronto in 1990 when David Peterson (Lib - Premier) called a snap election.  The Libs lost and Bob Rae (then NDP, now Lib i understand) found himself the premier of the biggest economy in Canada.  Historically, the NDP had acted as a sort of "conscience" for the party in power.  They seemed to be able to stop Lib and Con governments from running wild but never seriously had a chance of winning power.

And then they did.  Poor Bob Rae had espoused all of these wonderful social democratic policies and, once in office, had no way or money to implement them.  I was working in a hospital at the time and all of us had to take unpaid "Rae days" to try and bring some balance back to the provincial budget.

So... vote Green or NDP or libertarian as you wish.  But in my experience all the fine rhetoric in the world runs into a propeller blade when it's time to lead a government.  Campaign in poetry, govern in prose as they say.

Everyone uses Ray as an example of the NDP's inherent failure, but this is flawed without some context.  This was a little before I was paying attention, but from my understanding he came to power as the ship was sinking, so there would have been pain regardless of who was in power.  Perhaps Ray messed up, I dont know if his approach was the best, but it is not completely fair to blame him for the economy he was handed.

Of course not, but he got hoist on his own petard, by promising unions pie in the sky, which he couldn't actually deliver. (And if he'd been honest, he never would have promised as much.)  I enjoyed the fact that it was the NDP government that had to stand up to the unions that they had courted with big promises when reality hit them in the face.

Had the Ontario economy been in free fall at that time, Peterson would not have called an election.  He called a snap election believing he could maintain/enhance his majority.  His party lost the election and he lost his own seat.  Bob Rae woke up the next morning and found out "Holy crap, I'm actually going to have to govern now!!"  And then it all went to he77 and Mrs Artem & I moved to the US.

As to the ongoing travails of Trudeau the lesser -- I heard a commentator on NPR this morning claiming that the history of black/brown face in Canada means Justin's sins must be seen in a different context.  Unlike the US where blackface was used to denigrate blacks, she claimed that Canadian black/brown face historically did not serve that purpose.  It may be incredibly stupid and distasteful, but she saw Canadians believing this is a forgivable sin, unlike the US where it's a political death sentence.  Not sure I agree, but there you are.

[marshwiggle]

As to the ongoing travails of Trudeau the lesser -- I heard a commentator on NPR this morning claiming that the history of black/brown face in Canada means Justin's sins must be seen in a different context.  Unlike the US where blackface was used to denigrate blacks, she claimed that Canadian black/brown face historically did not serve that purpose.  It may be incredibly stupid and distasteful, but she saw Canadians believing this is a forgivable sin, unlike the US where it's a political death sentence.  Not sure I agree, but there you are.

I'm skeptical that this isn't primarily a case of Trudeau not being Trump, and therefore his feces are not as odorous, on principle.

[Kron3007]

We were living in Toronto in 1990 when David Peterson (Lib - Premier) called a snap election.  The Libs lost and Bob Rae (then NDP, now Lib i understand) found himself the premier of the biggest economy in Canada.  Historically, the NDP had acted as a sort of "conscience" for the party in power.  They seemed to be able to stop Lib and Con governments from running wild but never seriously had a chance of winning power.

And then they did.  Poor Bob Rae had espoused all of these wonderful social democratic policies and, once in office, had no way or money to implement them.  I was working in a hospital at the time and all of us had to take unpaid "Rae days" to try and bring some balance back to the provincial budget.

So... vote Green or NDP or libertarian as you wish.  But in my experience all the fine rhetoric in the world runs into a propeller blade when it's time to lead a government.  Campaign in poetry, govern in prose as they say.

Everyone uses Ray as an example of the NDP's inherent failure, but this is flawed without some context.  This was a little before I was paying attention, but from my understanding he came to power as the ship was sinking, so there would have been pain regardless of who was in power.  Perhaps Ray messed up, I dont know if his approach was the best, but it is not completely fair to blame him for the economy he was handed.

Of course not, but he got hoist on his own petard, by promising unions pie in the sky, which he couldn't actually deliver. (And if he'd been honest, he never would have promised as much.)  I enjoyed the fact that it was the NDP government that had to stand up to the unions that they had courted with big promises when reality hit them in the face.

Had the Ontario economy been in free fall at that time, Peterson would not have called an election.  He called a snap election believing he could maintain/enhance his majority.  His party lost the election and he lost his own seat.  Bob Rae woke up the next morning and found out "Holy crap, I'm actually going to have to govern now!!"  And then it all went to he77 and Mrs Artem & I moved to the US.

As to the ongoing travails of Trudeau the lesser -- I heard a commentator on NPR this morning claiming that the history of black/brown face in Canada means Justin's sins must be seen in a different context.  Unlike the US where blackface was used to denigrate blacks, she claimed that Canadian black/brown face historically did not serve that purpose.  It may be incredibly stupid and distasteful, but she saw Canadians believing this is a forgivable sin, unlike the US where it's a political death sentence.  Not sure I agree, but there you are.

Well, as mentioned I was not really paying attention at the time, too busy with lego and such.  However, everything I read would argue that the economy was indeed in trouble before he took office.  Perhaps not free fall, but not pretty and getting worse due to things far out of his control.  Just because that may not have been a good time to implement NDP policy dosnt mean it is wrong.  Building social programs takes time to build up and likely should be done while things are economically solid. 

As for Black/Brown face in Canada, I remember friends doing this for halloween costumes around the same period and it didnt really raise any eyebrows at the time (in my admittedly small, very white town).  I understand the issue with it, but he was a drama teacher dressing up as a character almost 20 years ago and has apologized profusely so I dont think it is really a big deal.  I am far more concerned with people's stances that would impact their policy decisions.  However, given his focus on diversity etc., it is quite ironic that he was a serial black/brown facer...