Impeachment

[polly_mer]

Things like Geraldo Rivera's live TV echo of DT's threats, that he'd like to do this person harm, are irresponsible in several ways; worst of all that, like the four knights who killed Thomas a Becket, someone will believe they are doing "the right thing" by discovering, outing, and silencing someone whose only crime, like that of most prophets, is to speak the truth about the present.

From the national security/intelligence side, we have written guidance and entire structures devoted to having truths and ensuring that need-to-know exists because knowledge is power.  Everyone knowing everything sounds great until someone uses that information against the US in ways that harm us.

I will state no opinion about the current situation with the Ukraine. 

I will state that if leaders cannot have conversations that remain protected by privilege, then getting things done is very difficult when all and sundry make a hue and cry regarding their feelings over getting something done for the good of the group because no shared vision exists for the good of the group.  I remember several instances with faculty members who were angry that closed-door discussions happened before a plan was brought forth to discuss.  I remember asking: do you want the snapshots at 0730, 0845, 0915, 1027, 1135, 1355, 1520, 1730, 1945 or do you want to have something coherent to discuss at faculty senate on Thursday with people present who can answer the likely questions being raised before a final decision is made?

High-levels of government are always involved in negotiating with each other regarding resources, shared interests, and getting the best deal for themselves.  Ideally, the best deals will focus on the needs of the people being represented.  Sometimes, those needs of those being represented involve specific individuals, which may or may not be the same decisions that someone else might make regarding the needs of those being represented.

All governments do things that are somewhat unsavory to the general public.  Nice people usually don't like to find out all the details related to military operations because humans are indeed killed.  The flip side is how many of those nice people would be brutally murdered by someone else's military were we to stand down our military.  The world is filled with not nice people; the US government cannot be fully staffed by nice people who are easily shocked by finding out the realities of what's necessary to allow a solid swatch of the nice people in the US to remain easily shocked by realities.

[mahagonny]

Joe Biden and Pres. Obama won't look any better when this is over. Elizabeth Warren has already said Hunter Biden shouldn't have been on that board, then stopped before saying anything more. The appearance of it  seems wrong.

[nebo113]

Things like Geraldo Rivera's live TV echo of DT's threats, that he'd like to do this person harm, are irresponsible in several ways; worst of all that, like the four knights who killed Thomas a Becket, someone will believe they are doing "the right thing" by discovering, outing, and silencing someone whose only crime, like that of most prophets, is to speak the truth about the present.

From the national security/intelligence side, we have written guidance and entire structures devoted to having truths and ensuring that need-to-know exists because knowledge is power.  Everyone knowing everything sounds great until someone uses that information against the US in ways that harm us.

I will state no opinion about the current situation with the Ukraine. 

I will state that if leaders cannot have conversations that remain protected by privilege, then getting things done is very difficult when all and sundry make a hue and cry regarding their feelings over getting something done for the good of the group because no shared vision exists for the good of the group.  I remember several instances with faculty members who were angry that closed-door discussions happened before a plan was brought forth to discuss.  I remember asking: do you want the snapshots at 0730, 0845, 0915, 1027, 1135, 1355, 1520, 1730, 1945 or do you want to have something coherent to discuss at faculty senate on Thursday with people present who can answer the likely questions being raised before a final decision is made?

High-levels of government are always involved in negotiating with each other regarding resources, shared interests, and getting the best deal for themselves.  Ideally, the best deals will focus on the needs of the people being represented.  Sometimes, those needs of those being represented involve specific individuals, which may or may not be the same decisions that someone else might make regarding the needs of those being represented.

All governments do things that are somewhat unsavory to the general public.  Nice people usually don't like to find out all the details related to military operations because humans are indeed killed.  The flip side is how many of those nice people would be brutally murdered by someone else's military were we to stand down our military.  The world is filled with not nice people; the US government cannot be fully staffed by nice people who are easily shocked by finding out the realities of what's necessary to allow a solid swatch of the nice people in the US to remain easily shocked by realities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/27/executive-privilege-is-vitally-important-not-expense-national-security/

[Antiphon1]

Things like Geraldo Rivera's live TV echo of DT's threats, that he'd like to do this person harm, are irresponsible in several ways; worst of all that, like the four knights who killed Thomas a Becket, someone will believe they are doing "the right thing" by discovering, outing, and silencing someone whose only crime, like that of most prophets, is to speak the truth about the present.

From the national security/intelligence side, we have written guidance and entire structures devoted to having truths and ensuring that need-to-know exists because knowledge is power.  Everyone knowing everything sounds great until someone uses that information against the US in ways that harm us.

I will state no opinion about the current situation with the Ukraine. 

I will state that if leaders cannot have conversations that remain protected by privilege, then getting things done is very difficult when all and sundry make a hue and cry regarding their feelings over getting something done for the good of the group because no shared vision exists for the good of the group.  I remember several instances with faculty members who were angry that closed-door discussions happened before a plan was brought forth to discuss.  I remember asking: do you want the snapshots at 0730, 0845, 0915, 1027, 1135, 1355, 1520, 1730, 1945 or do you want to have something coherent to discuss at faculty senate on Thursday with people present who can answer the likely questions being raised before a final decision is made?

High-levels of government are always involved in negotiating with each other regarding resources, shared interests, and getting the best deal for themselves.  Ideally, the best deals will focus on the needs of the people being represented.  Sometimes, those needs of those being represented involve specific individuals, which may or may not be the same decisions that someone else might make regarding the needs of those being represented.

All governments do things that are somewhat unsavory to the general public.  Nice people usually don't like to find out all the details related to military operations because humans are indeed killed.  The flip side is how many of those nice people would be brutally murdered by someone else's military were we to stand down our military.  The world is filled with not nice people; the US government cannot be fully staffed by nice people who are easily shocked by finding out the realities of what's necessary to allow a solid swatch of the nice people in the US to remain easily shocked by realities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/27/executive-privilege-is-vitally-important-not-expense-national-security/

Precisely.  The US has a long and checkered history of cutting deals with less than savory characters.  In the diplomacy game sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  However, those compromises came with the nation's safety and interests at their core.  In this case our president was extorting our democratic ally with taxpayer money to benefit his bid for reelection.  Further the placement of the call's records in the code word server when the those calls were not top secret indicates consciousness of guilt or at the very least a grave misuse of presidential power.  Executive privilege does not apply when the person commits a crime.  Extortion benefits the person not the nation.  Executive privilege is not personal privilege.

[polly_mer]

Uh-huh. 

I continue to be bemused by educated people who should know history and be familiar with a bazillion instances from literature that reveal what humans are like and then seem shocked when it turns out that specific contemporary humans with power and influence are exactly like examples from history and literature.  If the worst thing Trump has done is upclassify documents related to wheeling and dealing (and by making it public, we better damn well hope it was upclassified far beyond the true level), then we're not getting full value from our bastard.

The question in my mind still comes down to "is our bastard mostly doing what's in my interests or is it time to back a new bastard?"  I didn't vote for Trump last time and it's likely I won't vote for him next time.  However, the argument against some of the Democratic frontrunners is they are not big enough bastards with enough connections to do shady enough dealings in my interests related to national defense and global security.  A polite way to say that to nice people is so-and-so doesn't have enough national experience.  One thing Hillary had going for her was a solid national/international record in shady dealings and a willingness to be ruthless to achieve objectives.

[polly_mer]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/hunter-bidens-legal-socially-acceptable-corruption/598804/

[spork]

Regarding national security and executive privilege . . . given the information in the whistleblower's complaint, at least a half dozen people had immediate knowledge of the contents and purpose of Trump's call to Zelensky. And I bet that knowledge traveled pretty rapidly to others in the White House, and maybe the attorney general, given the attempt to hide the transcript of the call on a server system that is supposed to be dedicated only to highly secret and compartmentalized intelligence information.

For Trump, "national security" equates to "L'État, c'est moi." He believes in whatever hare-brained conspiracy theories he picks up from Fox News and close advisers like Giuliani because they accord with his narcissistic mentality. He has damaged the USA's relationships with NATO allies, harmed supply chains/export markets for goods produced in the USA, and, in the end, been a boon to Russia's interests.

[spork]

On the subject of President Trump's phone calls with foreign leaders and the number of people who heard them:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/politics/donald-trump-foreign-leader-calls-coaching/index.html.

[nebo113]

On the subject of President Trump's phone calls with foreign leaders and the number of people who heard them:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/politics/donald-trump-foreign-leader-calls-coaching/index.html.

What a surprise.

[mamselle]

I worry that the storm-and-mirrors thumping around, seeking to craft a dramatic offense as the best (only?) defense here will cause such confusion as to make the decision points needed at key junctures fall awry.

Which is, usually, the intended result.

I also wonder if the two hurricanes named Boris and Donald will meet in the Atlantic this season--or blow each other out of the water, in the peoples' exasperation with their jejune, bullying gusty fronts.

Just wondering...

M.

[mamselle]

Double post, later, to point out a very interesting Politico "What-if" article on the speculative possibilities that might occur with a President Pence as  a 2020 contender, considered from many angles.

A dodecahedral crystal ball, as it were.

(Sorry, can't link right now...)

M.

[spork]

The House's Oversight and Reform Committee was reported to be issuing a subpoena to the White House -- a demand for documents -- at some point today. Don't know if that's going to happen. In any case, once Trump refuses to comply, it will go into the articles of impeachment.

[mamselle]

I found G. Conway's article in the Atlantic on the constitutional inability of a narcissist to uphold constitutional law at their own expense well-written and well-thought out.

Yes, I know who he is.

I still thought it was a good analytic study.

M.

[nebo113]

Does anyone but me wonder what's going on inside the Conway house?

[ciao_yall]

Does anyone but me wonder what's going on inside the Conway house?

Have we heard much from her lately?