"It's time to prioritize what students want and need over what we want to teach"

[spork]

From "Where Did All the Students Go?" at The Chronicle:

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191006-A-Crisis-in-Enrollment?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emgxnn9QOIW3Fpm6CVxW3bB7WvCo0v5kNyHv4ArKljGafvRmVhWURjelM5ZThGRDloVE05Y2FqOTFSeDBqSUFoYlQ1cHAxcGdYREFINA

[Hegemony]

Yep. 

[mahagonny]

I had to chuckle at this line, not that it doesn't make sense, but because virtually everyone already thinks they have been doing this all along:

"Instead, it requires the attention of every member of every university community coming together to think less about our own self-interest and more about the common good of our institutions and society."

[Caracal]

From "Where Did All the Students Go?" at The Chronicle:

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191006-A-Crisis-in-Enrollment?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emgxnn9QOIW3Fpm6CVxW3bB7WvCo0v5kNyHv4ArKljGafvRmVhWURjelM5ZThGRDloVE05Y2FqOTFSeDBqSUFoYlQ1cHAxcGdYREFINA

Well, no, I reject the idea that college education should be designed solely to get students a job. Or more accurately that it should fit some narrow conception of what students think will get them a job. I still have these old stupid ideas about how you might be able to get people to think more broadly and deeply about the world and their place in it.

[mamselle]

From "Where Did All the Students Go?" at The Chronicle:

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191006-A-Crisis-in-Enrollment?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emgxnn9QOIW3Fpm6CVxW3bB7WvCo0v5kNyHv4ArKljGafvRmVhWURjelM5ZThGRDloVE05Y2FqOTFSeDBqSUFoYlQ1cHAxcGdYREFINA

Well, no, I reject the idea that college education should be designed solely to get students a job. Or more accurately that it should fit some narrow conception of what students think will get them a job. I still have these old stupid ideas about how you might be able to get people to think more broadly and deeply about the world and their place in it.

+1,000 000 000 000...

M.

[polly_mer]

That's nice.  So what happens to your job when "everyone" votes with their feet to do something else instead of going to expensive, irrelevant college that takes far too long and still doesn't help achieve goals like finding one's place in the world?

[mahagonny]

If the issue is just the declining birth rate, then schools going out of business can be seen as just a market correction. Painful but necessary and foreseen. (If you're paying attention.)

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

In my field the problem is a mismatch between what students want and what they really need to do to get a decent job.
Nowadays, the latter includes way more math than the former. I wonder how much time will pass before we will be able to shed math-light image.

[Parasaurolophus]

Well, no, I reject the idea that college education should be designed solely to get students a job. Or more accurately that it should fit some narrow conception of what students think will get them a job. I still have these old stupid ideas about how you might be able to get people to think more broadly and deeply about the world and their place in it.

I wouldn't be as bothered by the idea if the people advocating it were responsive to evidence.

[tuxthepenguin]

Long ago there was a joke about someone flossing while a tiger was charging at them to make a point about missing the big, urgent problems.

Things are bad for universities because

• Tuition is extremely high and growing faster than incomes
• There are plenty of jobs for new high school grads
• There are fewer high school grads
• There is a new aversion to student loan debt

Let's fix all that by offering a new class. Excellent strategy!

[mahagonny]

Well, if plenty of jobs for new high school graduates is bad news for colleges, why should the fate of colleges be a matter of general concern? They aren't all going away.

[Hibush]

Well, if plenty of jobs for new high school graduates is bad news for colleges, why should the fate of colleges be a matter of general concern? They aren't all going away.

That statement describes the situation well. In the economic cycles, you expect a smaller proportion of high school graduates to go to college when the unemployment rate is low. And vice versa.

That fluctuation is generally accommodated by having many schools that can adjust their capacity a lot. The model would have them appointing temporary instructors when enrollment peaks, and letting those folks go when enrollment dips.

We also have schools that are not able to adjust their enrollment. Some schools have a fixed number of dorm beds and classrooms, and try to run at 100%. They vary their admission rate instead. If they are attractive enough, students' quality and ability to pay will remain adequate.

Another way fluctuation in overall numbers is accommodated is for some schools to close when enrollment dips. New ones open when enrollment peaks (in the previous boom, we saw a lot of for-profits open to supply that demand).

Sorry about the OT reply for this thread.

[marshwiggle]

From "Where Did All the Students Go?" at The Chronicle:

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191006-A-Crisis-in-Enrollment?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emgxnn9QOIW3Fpm6CVxW3bB7WvCo0v5kNyHv4ArKljGafvRmVhWURjelM5ZThGRDloVE05Y2FqOTFSeDBqSUFoYlQ1cHAxcGdYREFINA

Well, no, I reject the idea that college education should be designed solely to get students a job. Or more accurately that it should fit some narrow conception of what students think will get them a job. I still have these old stupid ideas about how you might be able to get people to think more broadly and deeply about the world and their place in it.

This implicit dichotomy really bugs me. While education can (and should) do more than "solely" prepare them for a job, if 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars don't make them substantially more employable than before, there's something seriously wrong.

[Caracal]

That's nice.  So what happens to your job when "everyone" votes with their feet to do something else instead of going to expensive, irrelevant college that takes far too long and still doesn't help achieve goals like finding one's place in the world?

What is happening here is that people are seeing a real problem, but then using it to advance ideas about what colleges should teach which really don't relate to the problem

First, there's the issue of credentialing and degrees. There is a huge wage gap between people who get college degrees and those who don't. The incentive to go to college is quite high, but the price is high too. Basically, students are presented with this high stakes wager. The Expected Value (gambling term) is high enough usually that its a bet they should make, but it a risky bet and if you don't finish college or if you do and aren't able to realize those expected returns in higher wages, you end up in a bad place. Partly this is about student loans and tuition, but really this is about inequality. It would be nice if the bet was less risky, but it also wouldn't be incentivized in the same way if people could get more jobs without a college degree and if those jobs paid better. In this imaginary world, people graduating high school would be able to make reasonable decisions about college that factored in their capacity and desire to go.

What drives me nuts is that you see administrators and others look at this state of affairs and think "ok, students are making this risky bet, so what we need to do is reshape everything to try to make it more likely that the bet will pay off." In theory, that sounds fine, but higher education was never meant to do that and will never do it well. Colleges will never be able to predict and teach the exact skills that will be needed for jobs. Sure, there are certain kinds of pre professional programs where that model might make sense, but not everyone is equipped to be a nurse or a PT and most jobs don't require that kind of specialized training. Colleges are never going to be able to singlehandedly give students "what they want and need" to "find their place in the world," or get a job or any of that. It won't work. What might result is that you make college into a deadening experience where students plod through courses that are supposed to help them succeed in the world, but don't do anything to give them a broader perspective or challenge their thinking.

[tuxthepenguin]

From "Where Did All the Students Go?" at The Chronicle:

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191006-A-Crisis-in-Enrollment?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emgxnn9QOIW3Fpm6CVxW3bB7WvCo0v5kNyHv4ArKljGafvRmVhWURjelM5ZThGRDloVE05Y2FqOTFSeDBqSUFoYlQ1cHAxcGdYREFINA

Well, no, I reject the idea that college education should be designed solely to get students a job. Or more accurately that it should fit some narrow conception of what students think will get them a job. I still have these old stupid ideas about how you might be able to get people to think more broadly and deeply about the world and their place in it.

This implicit dichotomy really bugs me. While education can (and should) do more than "solely" prepare them for a job, if 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars don't make them substantially more employable than before, there's something seriously wrong.

The thing is, it's the colleges that went the route of jacking up tuition as high as possible and they got away with it by marketing it as an investment. It's not that there's a change to focusing on college as a ticket to a job. Colleges already went there so that they could get every last dollar (including loans) out of the pockets of students. And it's not faculty salaries that cause universities to charge $40,000 a year for eight classes.