"It's time to prioritize what students want and need over what we want to teach"

[spork]

Well, they do explicitly teach them, obviously, which is how the students get through the class.

The resistance tends to come because different fields have different methods for doing research, writing styles, evaluation and weight of fact versus opinion versus perception.

So when someone starts wanting to micromanage how historians or psychologists or whomever do their work, the hackles come up fast.

You're missing the point of the proposals. History profs are teaching history, not spreadsheets or writing or public speaking or other practical skills. The students get through the class by taking tests over history.

This isn't micromanaging and it doesn't have anything to do with telling historians how to do their work.. These proposals would require any gen ed course instructor to explain what practical skills they are teaching. It could be writing, public speaking, computer programming, interpersonal skills, personal finance, sales, or many others. If the university is going to require students to take a particular class, that class has to do more than cover knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Other courses, like a seminar in European history, would have no such requirement.

And I think, if universities actually did this, they they could make that a selling point for those courses.

Unfortunately for institutions like University of Saint Francis, it's too late. Students have already voted with their feet; thirty students in fifteen programs being eliminated, less than two percent of total enrollment. Note that the vast majority of the undergraduate programs that will disappear are those whose courses typically count toward gen ed distribution requirements. Meanwhile, eleven faculty teaching in those programs will probably be unemployed at the end of the academic year.

[marshwiggle]

This sounds like a pretty good justification for college to me.  Including gen eds.  I'm sold.

Some people drive Rolls Royces.
Some people drive Hondas.

Even though both statements are true, those values of "some" are vastly different.

Saying that there is "some" value in education doesn't remotely address whether the amount of value is in keeping with the cost, or whether the same value could be achieved at significantly lower cost.  Since the cost (in money and time) is high, it's very likely that similar outcomes could be achieved with significantly lower investment.

[Wahoo Redux]

Fixing the K-12 system is hard, but a better use of the resources if the social goal is more people who are better broadly educated instead of college-level teaching jobs for faculty members.  Otherwise, we're going to continue to read about college students who can't recite the alphabet and yet are somehow supposed to be getting something out of their trip to the library.

Polly, you are one of the smartest people I've ever interacted with.  And, as I understand, you are a scientist, so supposedly you work with deduction and facts.

And then you suggest a 3rd-hand anecdote, taken out of context, on a public forum to prove...what exactly?!

According to the linked comment, a student goes to the library.  A librarian supposedly explains that the stacks are arraigned alpha-by-letter.  The student asks something to the effect of, "Which letters come when?" which could have been a badly phrased question with a legitimate concern such as

• Are the letters shown at the end of the stacks?
  
• How are the stacks arraigned? (the layout and order in our uni library it is indeed confusing, even for those of us who spend time there)
• Do the letters come first or the numbers?
  Ect.

We live in an electronic age.  Many students arrive at college literally never having been to a library of any sort in their lives, particularly if they are from isolated rural communities as many of my students have been. 

Students are not necessarily taught in their secondary education how to even check out books.  I've had more than one student come up to me with a book title and a call-number and say, "Now what?"  It is easy to look down at these people as ignorant philistines...but I then remember my first night as a desk clerk at a less-than-reputable motel when my coworker was furious that I did not know where the mail forms were located; apparently I was supposed to be born with this particular knowledge.  The library, with its labyrinths of bookshelves and its byzantine ordering system, is very intimidating to the uninitiated.  This is why we have helpful librarians and professors.

I've never had to explain more than once the basics of library research to a student, however, and the beautiful thing about it is that, because of a gen ed requirement, students were introduced to an entirely new way of seeking knowledge.

The only reason to link to hegemony's post is a kind of hysteria to win an argument based on ridiculous, unsourced evidence which is an anomaly of some kind.  I mean, come on Polly, do you honestly think that college students can't recite the alphabet?

Even if there is an alphabet-deficient college student out there, does that one data-point prove anything? (assuming that the anecdote is true in the first place)

Maybe you don't even consciously know it, but you have an agenda.  What exactly it is I do not know.  And I don't think I care.

That comment was pure bull**it, Polly.

I think I am done with you, my friend.  I ignore Marshwiggle for the most part because he just asks clueless, obnoxious, aggressive questions that really don't need or deserve answers.  Maybe you and he can talk to each other on these boards.  I'm out.

[egilson]

Fixing the K-12 system is hard, but a better use of the resources if the social goal is more people who are better broadly educated instead of college-level teaching jobs for faculty members.  Otherwise, we're going to continue to read about college students who can't recite the alphabet and yet are somehow supposed to be getting something out of their trip to the library.

Polly, you are one of the smartest people I've ever interacted with.  And, as I understand, you are a scientist, so supposedly you work with deduction and facts.

And then you suggest a 3rd-hand anecdote, taken out of context, on a public forum to prove...what exactly?!

When you have a political axe to grind and get aroused by your own rhetoric, facts are just an impediment.

[polly_mer]

Fixing the K-12 system is hard, but a better use of the resources if the social goal is more people who are better broadly educated instead of college-level teaching jobs for faculty members.  Otherwise, we're going to continue to read about college students who can't recite the alphabet and yet are somehow supposed to be getting something out of their trip to the library.

Polly, you are one of the smartest people I've ever interacted with.  And, as I understand, you are a scientist, so supposedly you work with deduction and facts.

And then you suggest a 3rd-hand anecdote, taken out of context, on a public forum to prove...what exactly?!

The communication method suggested this week of telling a story to illustrate the point is ineffective here?  OK. 

How many more links to college-unreadiness numbers do you want?  Tell me the number that will be convincing to you that K-12 education is failing a large portion of the US population to the point that they cannot benefit from a college education in a mere four years because those folks are starting too low in background knowledge, related effective study skills, and motivation to try again since the last N years of schooling were ineffective.

I can also provide hundreds of thousands of words for first-person accounts teaching in institutions where the students weren't college ready and thus couldn't do things like enter basic arithmetic into a calculator or divide numbers by 10 without being shown how to use that calculator if you think that would be more convincing.

Tell me also how many more links to college graduation rates of a bare majority of people who enter college will be convincing.

Tell me how many more links related to the cost of college for the value provided you'd like?  I haven't done as many of those lately so here's one: https://quillette.com/2018/11/23/the-case-for-dropping-out-of-college/

Yes, my college education did fabulous things for me because I learned subjects that aren't taught in K-12 (e.g., fluid mechanics, math past differential equations including programming computers to solve the hardest equations, physics + chemistry that relied on that math, advanced engineering topics that relied on chemistry + physics + math + programming)  nor are they easy to acquire out in the world just by being a curious adult with access to libraries and the internet. 

My college education built on a very good K-12 education from a small, rural place that put money and resources into education.  I achieved the American Dream through my education and moved from the bottom quintile to the top quintile for income.  I couldn't do what I do today if I'd had the completely inadequate K-12 education common in places where I was teaching college classes to folks expected a pass for just showing up*.  My family lives in a very expensive neighborhood today so that Blocky can have a very good 3-12 education in a community that values education where nearly all the children are at or above grade level in reading and mathematics.  Thus, Blocky can choose to attend college or not, but he will be OK out in the world.

I benefit greatly from being a book worm who watches a lot of television documentaries.  However, that's my family background, even with the family members who didn't have high school diplomas until middle age, not a result of school.   I was assured that playing the game would pay off if I played it well including learning things that are valuable in large part because so few people know them and being willing to do all the hard work of learning new things where other people tend to give up early (e.g., math).

Only a third of the US adult population has bachelor degrees so we're totally screwed as a society if everyone really needs that college education to be a contributing member of society and if we need everyone who can be a contributing member of society to being a contributing member of society.

I'm spending the morning on my novel, so I suggest that people read up on social mobility problems in the US and the myths of the benefits for college education for the poor if they actually want to understand the problems along with possible fixes that aren't saving their college teacher job.

* My favorite first-person story here is the student who explained how passing math in high school worked.  The student was failing algebra and had just failed the final exam.  The teacher gave him another oral exam with extensive coaching during the exam, changed the grade on the recent written exam to a D-, and said, "Welcome to a passing grade in algebra".  That student wanted me to do the same thing for the midterm in my math class.  I declined and pointed out that HS teacher hadn't done the student any favors by passing him in the one math class required for HS graduation without learning the material.

The student angrily explained that he was going to be an elementary-school teacher and didn't need either algebra or the current math class I was teaching.  Instead, that student was going to apply to the regional comprehensive and skip the rest of his CC education.  I smiled big at him and said, "I teach the science for teachers class at Regional Comprehensive that is required for all education majors.  It has a lot of the algebra you didn't learn in high school and can't currently do in statistics.  People routinely fail that class for not being able to do this level of algebra."

The student stated, "Then you and me are going to have problems!" and left the office.  That student never showed up in my science for teachers class, but he did take that F in statistics by not showing up to any more classes and being past the drop date.

[Wahoo Redux]

How many more links to college-unreadiness numbers do you want? 

As many as you like.  I am not opposed to improving secondary and higher ed at all.  Just please make sure they are sane and reliable and not hysterical and/or hyperbolic.

Tell me the number that will be convincing to you that K-12 education is failing a large portion of the US population to the point that they cannot benefit from a college education in a mere four years because those folks are starting too low in background knowledge, related effective study skills, and motivation to try again since the last N years of schooling were ineffective.

Tell me also how many more links to college graduation rates of a bare majority of people who enter college will be convincing.

Gonna have to be quite a bit, my friend. 

Remember that I, like you, have been an academic.  I work with students every day and I observe their readiness everyday----not to mention that my last two academic employers were farther down the prestige hierarchy than I would like, and even these folks are more-or-less college ready.   I was educated in public schools.  Many of my h.s. classmates, the vast majority who have gone on to employment and the middle-class lifestyle, also went on to college.  Some struggled; some achieved a great deal.

Your own NPR graphic shows a 65 percent graduation rate in public 4 year colleges and a 76 percent graduation rate in private 4 year colleges over 6 years---sure do wish that were better, but it also suggests a majority of students graduating.  Plus the rates are slowly climbing (if you would care to read your own link.)  What brings the average down are the for-profit and CC graduation rates.

However, don't forget that people drop out of college for all sorts of reasons (pregnancy, family, psychological issues, alcoholism, money, military service, a good job, boredom with school, immaturity, etc.), not just because they are unprepared.  Many return later in life to finish their degrees.  You know this.  Why that doesn't factor into your brain I don't know.

Your link shows us not very much we didn't already know, and your deduction is not entirely sane.

You've gone all hysterical on us again.

I can also provide hundreds of thousands of words for first-person accounts teaching in institutions where the students weren't college ready and thus couldn't do things like enter basic arithmetic into a calculator or divide numbers by 10 without being shown how to use that calculator if you think that would be more convincing.

Well, firstly, math is not really important to the lifestyles of most of us in the Western World.  Simply isn't.

Secondly, I can provide hundreds of thousands of words of first-person accounts of people who saw Bigfoot.

Thirdly, are humans born with a priori knowledge of how to work a calculator?  Or does someone need to show us how one works?  Hmm?

So no, not really convincing.  We always complain when young'uns fail.  We also blame the entire generation and the failures they have attended to.   It's what humans do. 

B'sides, how good is anecdotal evidence in science anyway?  Do you do chemistry via anecdote?  "My student said he synthesized an aldehyde by chewing on a dandelion.  So it must be true."

I have no idea what the rest of that is supposed to mean and I don't really care.  But this...

Only a third of the US adult population has bachelor degrees so we're totally screwed as a society if everyone really needs that college education to be a contributing member of society and if we need everyone who can be a contributing member of society to being a contributing member of society.

...is more hysterical strawman arguing.  Never said anything like that.  No one has.  I don't even think that makes sense!   

And what's all this about "screwed as a society"?!  Who ever posted that?  I think you return to this in order to make a point...but it is a point no one is positing. 

No, we're just talking about the efficacy of education here for those who choose to attend.  Why oh why do I keep trying to talk to you...

[mahagonny]

No, we're just talking about the efficacy of education here for those who choose to attend. Why oh why do I keep trying to talk to you...

When the posting moves into debate territory, you may be thinking that you while you won't convince your debating partner of anything, the reader benefits from getting to choose which arguments make more sense.

[spork]

From The Chronicle - Nathan Grawe, "The Enrollment Crash Goes Deeper Than Demographics":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191101-Grawe?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emg8NQDKSxJ1Szu9PpN83-Tmf5xWeFcz4QXjKuy7n8AYoHS2swS0pfa21OOURUVGxmQzJhdm5iaGVCazdYa0lqZ1V5Slp3WjFYUDctOA (link pulled from Twitter)

It is within colleges' power to control the curricula they offer.

[Wahoo Redux]

From The Chronicle - Nathan Grawe, "The Enrollment Crash Goes Deeper Than Demographics":

https://www.chronicle.com/interactives/20191101-Grawe?key=mi0Bff1vaLHL09_no2Emg8NQDKSxJ1Szu9PpN83-Tmf5xWeFcz4QXjKuy7n8AYoHS2swS0pfa21OOURUVGxmQzJhdm5iaGVCazdYa0lqZ1V5Slp3WjFYUDctOA (link pulled from Twitter)

It is within colleges' power to control the curricula they offer.

Agreed. 

From the article:

"Similarly, recent work by Strada and Gallup finds that students are more likely to see value in their education — and to view it as worth the price — if they've taken courses that they perceive as relevant to their lives and careers. While this result should not be used in misguided ventures to turn all students into STEM majors, it is a reminder that, regardless of major, higher education should prepare students for meaningful lives following college. Some colleges have responded with interdepartmental degrees, such as "computer science + X," which often pair marketable computer-science skills with humanities studies. Other colleges have brought relevance to existing programs through increased support for internships. However designed, these efforts aim to make clearer the links between college studies and life after graduation."

[spork]

The conflict between faculty self-interest and student priorities: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/gen-ed-reform-and-problem-other-courses.

[tuxthepenguin]

"Similarly, recent work by Strada and Gallup finds that students are more likely to see value in their education — and to view it as worth the price — if they've taken courses that they perceive as relevant to their lives and careers. While this result should not be used in misguided ventures to turn all students into STEM majors, it is a reminder that, regardless of major, higher education should prepare students for meaningful lives following college. Some colleges have responded with interdepartmental degrees, such as "computer science + X," which often pair marketable computer-science skills with humanities studies. Other colleges have brought relevance to existing programs through increased support for internships. However designed, these efforts aim to make clearer the links between college studies and life after graduation."

Given current levels of tuition, there better be a link between college classes and life after graduation.

[mahagonny]

The conflict between faculty self-interest and student priorities: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/gen-ed-reform-and-problem-other-courses.

"The Onion did a piece a while back on Americans' attitude toward mass transit. As the piece had it, 98 percent of Americans favor increased use of mass transit by other people; that way, their own commutes wouldn't be slowed by so much traffic.
That's kind of how gen ed reforms work. Departments frequently agree that the overall requirement is too high, but then defend their own courses to the death. The problem is all those other courses."

It's all a ruse. The tenured professors don't actually think their field is more beneficial to the students than someone else's field. They just consider it their duty to keep their adjuncts working.

[dr_codex]

The conflict between faculty self-interest and student priorities: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/gen-ed-reform-and-problem-other-courses.

"For programs that were already at or near the old cap, getting down to the new one required either gutting trimming program offerings or trimming gutting gen ed."

Fixed the blog post for you.

Spork, I refuse your forced choice between "want and need" vs. "want". Trust me, I don't exactly want to teach several sections of comp; they are, however, what my students need. Moreover, my students aren't often the best judges of what they need, and frequently make suboptimal decisions based on what they want.

I teach at one of the most professionally oriented places you'll ever see, so much so that the idea of reverting to a trade school is routinely floated. Even our niche industry, however, has no idea what graduates of the future will need to know. Sure, they can see what's coming 5 years out, but beyond that major disruptions are coming. So, when pressed, they want the basics: writing, math, critical thinking and imagination. To be fair, they're assuming professional knowledge when they say this, but the reality is that the kinds of training we've offered for over a century may well be mostly obsolete in 20 years.

Polly is undoubtedly going to reply that a better K-12 system will graduate students with the three R's, and more. "Getting to Denmark" is a worthy aspiration. But it isn't likely to happen overnight in the U.S., and gutting breadth and skill components in colleges and universities is just as likely to exacerbate existing problems as it is to bring forth a huge cadre of engineers ready to design new missile guidance systems.

[ciao_yall]

Spent the other day with a group of representatives from major contractors and labor unions regarding a construction training program we have. Our CC spends 18 weeks training a City-funded group of at-risk "At-Promise" young adults the basics of the construction trades before sending them out to do woodworking, welding, plastering, electrical, etc. We also teach them math, labor union history, and PE.

We asked them what they wanted from our training program. Answer? "More computer skills and more life skills. We can show them how to drywall. We want people who can show up on time, have a good attitude, and fill out their online paperwork. Oh yeah, and more math."

[spork]

Changes in Educational Attainment, 1940 to 2018

Courtesy Jon Boeckenstedt, enrollment management guru extraordinaire.