The Venting Thread

[mamselle]

Well, double-ost, but with plenty of time in between!

Actually, this may belong on the whining thread (oh, wait, do we have one?)...

I don't LIKE sea salt stuff, or caramel, or both, with my dark chocolate, Ghirardelli!

What happened to the nice mint and raspberry flavors you used to have in the mixed squares bag?

(now, there's a rock group name: Ghirardelli and the Mixed Squares...)

I'll eat it anyway, because, well....dark chocolate, but...

I try to avoid salt in stuff, and this forces it on me.

Harrumpf.

M.

[paultuttle]

Very bad allergies today.

+1 here, for the past week or so.

Me, too.  And now mulberry's back, which is just a party waiting to happen.

Me three.

[mamselle]

Very bad allergies today.

+1 here, for the past week or so.

Me, too.  And now mulberry's back, which is just a party waiting to happen.

Me three.

Like I say, it's all S. Carolina's fault...they started it.

M.

[smallcleanrat]

Venting about how hard it is to vent at present.

My body is malfunctioning in new and disconcerting ways. I don't understand why these things are happening. Doctors I talk to don't know whats happening, don't know what to do about, and therefore don't seem to intend to do anything about it. I'm scared and uncomfortable and in pain and, for reasons I can't articulate, having to keep it to myself makes it all much harder to bear.

A lot of people are venting these days with the disruption related to the pandemic. People I know have had to cancel weddings, have lost jobs or had to make a short-notice transition to working remotely. They are stuck at home and bored or lonely or frustrated over their diminished productivity as their work routines were thrown out of whack. They are dealing with anxiety about the virus and the stress of managing family dynamics in a lock-down situation. All such vents are perfectly understandable.

Some people vent to me personally. Some do it generally over facebook or similar. They get the comfort of sympathy, commiseration, advice, or just a friendly chat to take their mind off their worries for a while. I don't know how to get the same need met.

I know most people don't want to hear in depth talk about anything too heavy. I usually downplay it, but I will sometimes attempt to let someone know that I'm not doing ok lately. If someone asks how I am, I may say something like "Well, I've been rather down lately" or "A bit stressed out this week". The most common response is something like, "Oh, yeah. Everybody is. Just the other day [insert anecdote about a long, frustrating attempt to get supplies at the grocery store; although sometimes it is a more severe problem like a job loss]. But at least I'm getting more time at home with [insert enjoyable things here]. Try to remember [insert generic sentiment regarding forbearance, counting your blessings, or accepting things you can not change to focus on the things you can]. Anyway, I should get going. Bye!"

Even SO has been too preoccupied with his own stress to be much available to me. He is used to going out a few times a week to visit friends, and the lack of face-to-face social time has really been affecting him.

[smallcleanrat]

What do you do when you need to cry but can't? When you want to scream but you know you shouldn't? When you need to connect but there's no one around?

[Cheerful]

What do you do when you need to cry but can't? When you want to scream but you know you shouldn't? When you need to connect but there's no one around?

What's on your mind SCR?  Water Cooler thread is always open, even on weekends and holidays.

[smallcleanrat]

What do you do when you need to cry but can't? When you want to scream but you know you shouldn't? When you need to connect but there's no one around?

What's on your mind SCR?  Water Cooler thread is always open, even on weekends and holidays.

Hmm...I thought the water cooler thread was more for casual chat, not angst...?

[Cheerful]

What do you do when you need to cry but can't? When you want to scream but you know you shouldn't? When you need to connect but there's no one around?

What's on your mind SCR?  Water Cooler thread is always open, even on weekends and holidays.

Hmm...I thought the water cooler thread was more for casual chat, not angst...?

Sorry you are feeling angst.  I was referring to your "need to connect" comment when I suggested water cooler. 

Many are struggling due to the virus crisis.  It's challenging.  Those who were struggling pre-crisis now bear a heavier burden. 

Can you get some fresh air this weekend?

[smallcleanrat]

What do you do when you need to cry but can't? When you want to scream but you know you shouldn't? When you need to connect but there's no one around?

What's on your mind SCR?  Water Cooler thread is always open, even on weekends and holidays.

Hmm...I thought the water cooler thread was more for casual chat, not angst...?

Sorry you are feeling angst.  I was referring to your "need to connect" comment when I suggested water cooler. 

Many are struggling due to the virus crisis.  It's challenging.  Those who were struggling pre-crisis now bear a heavier burden. 

Can you get some fresh air this weekend?

Getting fresh air every weekday, as I still have to go out to get medical treatment.

I'm upset and scared about the new ways my body is finding to malfunction. Feel like I'm dealing with it all alone because no one knows what to do about it right now (including doctors and SO), so they see no reason to keep thinking about it; there are too many other things to worry about.

Don't know how to get free of these pent up feelings.

And the stay-at-home life has made me realize how little I matter as a human being to people I thought were my friends. My SO says it's because I seem to have trouble distinguishing friends from friendly acquaintances. An acquaintance interacts with you because...well...you're there; you have activities in common. When you aren't there, they don't especially miss you and they feel no need to seek you out. I've failed to connect with them in the ways they've connected to each other. I tried, and I failed.

[smallcleanrat]

Well, being unable to cry is no longer an issue.

Been trying to connect with labmates through casual chat. How's it going, what are you up to...that sort of thing. So far it hasn't led to much. Answers are brief, and so far I am always the one who has to initiate. But I know people are unusually preoccupied these days and that forming connections takes time.

Had an extremely painful conversation with a lab mate (the only one I considered myself close enough to to call a friend) on Slack after I broached the possibility of planning some kind of group social meet up over Zoom, because I thought it would be more social than the brief one on one chats. Certainly was able to cry after hearing his response. Crying was the only thing I was able to do last night. He did a very thorough dissection of what he viewed as my social deficiencies to explain why I was still more of an outsider than the others. Said I had not "earned the right" to expect them to talk to me. "If you're looking for social handouts, you won't get them." Handouts...like starting a conversation with me is charity work.

I wasn't under the illusion I had a close friendship with anyone in the lab. But I thought there was still some kind of connection; a casual friendship such that a little non-work socialization wasn't out of place. But I don't think I've even got that much.

It's been hard to meet people outside of work (before the pandemic) because I feel so sick all the time. I don't have a lot of activities outside of the lab. In lab, I made an effort. I asked people to grab lunch with me, tried to make small talk when I saw them, asked after pets and families and SOs, got a housewarming gift for someone who had just moved, once in a while brought treats in for everybody...I was still left out a lot, but I thought all that counted for...something.

Now I feel even more out of place, two years in, than I did on day 1, when I was a complete stranger to everyone.

[Larimar]

Jeepers! Your lab mate sounds like a Colossal Jerk!

[smallcleanrat]

Jeepers! Your lab mate sounds like a Colossal Jerk!

He's been nice to me in other ways. They all have. That's probably why this hurt so much. He told me the other labmates often ask how I'm doing and what I am up to; they just never ask me. When I asked why, he said I did not take enough responsibility in telling them how to interact with me. If I am experiencing tics or am in pain or fatigued or otherwise showing signs of distress, they prefer to keep their distance rather than "invade" my space. He says I should have been more forthcoming in explaining my medical issues and how they can interact with me. I would have done this if anyone had asked or given me an inkling they wanted to know this. Instead they treated me as if I were invisible.

I had asked my PI at various times whether he thought I should discuss some of the issues with other people in the lab and he seemed reluctant to offer an opinion one way or another.

The last day the lab was open I broke down after all my labmates went to a sort of farewell lunch together, walking right past me to go out the door, but without asking me to join. They have left me out of preplanned social lunches before, but this hit extra hard because I didn't know when I'd be able to see any of them in person again.

There was a day when I had a sudden onset of stabbing pains in chest and abdomen. My throat and tongue swelled, making it hard to breathe. I ended up curled on the floor of lab gasping and trembling for nearly an hour until the pain and swelling subsided enough I could get up again. People walked past me the entire time I lay there. It was a scary experience and wretchedly lonely. I asked about it afterwards and everyone said they didn't want to bother me if I wasn't feeling well. I begged them to please come ask me if I need help if I'm on the ground, because I may not be able to speak or move well enough to flag them down.

About a month later, I had another (fortunately shorter) episode. Again, everybody just walked past me lying on the floor. Again, people said they saw me there but weren't sure whether or not to intervene. So they went to the default action of ignoring me. They told me I need to explicitly ask for help.

I don't know how long i would have lay there without help if I had passed out or even dropped dead.

It's why when people tell me that people would be upset to lose me if I killed myself, it's often difficult to take them seriously.

[Puget]

Jeepers! Your lab mate sounds like a Colossal Jerk!

He's been nice to me in other ways. They all have. That's probably why this hurt so much. He told me the other labmates often ask how I'm doing and what I am up to; they just never ask me. When I asked why, he said I did not take enough responsibility in telling them how to interact with me. If I am experiencing tics or am in pain or fatigued or otherwise showing signs of distress, they prefer to keep their distance rather than "invade" my space. He says I should have been more forthcoming in explaining my medical issues and how they can interact with me. I would have done this if anyone had asked or given me an inkling they wanted to know this. Instead they treated me as if I were invisible.

I had asked my PI at various times whether he thought I should discuss some of the issues with other people in the lab and he seemed reluctant to offer an opinion one way or another.

The last day the lab was open I broke down after all my labmates went to a sort of farewell lunch together, walking right past me to go out the door, but without asking me to join. They have left me out of preplanned social lunches before, but this hit extra hard because I didn't know when I'd be able to see any of them in person again.

There was a day when I had a sudden onset of stabbing pains in chest and abdomen. My throat and tongue swelled, making it hard to breathe. I ended up curled on the floor of lab gasping and trembling for nearly an hour until the pain and swelling subsided enough I could get up again. People walked past me the entire time I lay there. It was a scary experience and wretchedly lonely. I asked about it afterwards and everyone said they didn't want to bother me if I wasn't feeling well. I begged them to please come ask me if I need help if I'm on the ground, because I may not be able to speak or move well enough to flag them down.

About a month later, I had another (fortunately shorter) episode. Again, everybody just walked past me lying on the floor. Again, people said they saw me there but weren't sure whether or not to intervene. So they went to the default action of ignoring me. They told me I need to explicitly ask for help.

I don't know how long i would have lay there without help if I had passed out or even dropped dead.

It's why when people tell me that people would be upset to lose me if I killed myself, it's often difficult to take them seriously.

That is very hard, and clearly they didn't act the way one would hope they would. However, I very much doubt this is personal to you-- it sounds more like they just don't know how to act around someone in distress, and unfortunately their response to their own distress and uncertainty in that situation is avoidance and inaction. That is very, very, common, especially when there is diffusion of responsibility (see, bystander effect). They are afraid of doing the wrong thing, so they do nothing, which is the wrong call in this case, but sounds like it comes from a place of lack of knowledge and fear rather than indifference or malice.

As hard as your lab mate's words were to hear, having some more direct information about what they should do in different situations could be a good idea and empower them to act. When you are back in the lab, maybe write it down for them and post it by your desk in the lab so they know what to do in different situations? Maybe you could make some signs to use if they aren't able to talk-- e.g., "I'm in pain/unwell, please ______." (whatever it is you'd need them to do-- contact the health center, call 911, etc.)?

[alto_stratus]

I agree that it's helpful to tell people how to interact with you or how to intervene.  A lot of people don't know what to do in new situations - whether it's getting help for themselves or others.  These people in your lab do sound hopelessly clueless on a social level, but if that's what you're working with, you may need to give explicit directions. 

There's some awkwardness about sharing personal details, and bosses will be reluctant to say anything for fear of violating your privacy, but maybe now's a good time to reflect on what people need to know and when they need to know it. If you're not sure what to do, you may be able to talk it through with a therapist, someone in the disability office, a nurse, or an ombudsperson.

I've worked with people with health issues and disabilities, some who have been forthcoming about what to expect, some who I've had to learn about as I worked with them. It has helped me to know things like, "I have a hearing difference - make sure you're speaking clearly and to my face (not my back) when you're talking to me" or "When I get overwhelmed, I do XYZ behavior and I just need some space and will be okay in a few hours." Sometimes I have that info in advance, sometimes they come to me after an episode - either way works, as long as I know what to do. That way, I'm not sitting there thinking, "What's going on?" I know this person is having a bit of a crisis, and I'm either going to let them calm down, or change something in my behavior to help them, or call them an ambulance based on what they've told me.

It takes someone with social skills and risk tolerance to intervene in unexpected situations - to know what to say and what to do. Now that I'm older, I have some experience, from watching others intervene skillfully (usually people with healthcare or social work backgrounds), or bumbling along in situations where I felt someone else might be at risk if I didn't do something, anything, even if it was feeble or stupid. But there are still some situations I'm not prepared for.  Just a year ago, I was walking along the street and witnessed a rollover accident and did not know what to do. Others immediately sprang into action to pull people from the car and call 911. I waited on the sidelines, a little in shock, knowing I had no emergency training (other than that which said don't move people who might have been injured) and I'd need direction to help. I stayed with one of the families who was on the sidewalk until the police came. But I felt kind of useless.

Anyway, hugs to you. You deserved better in these situations. I'm sorry people are kind of idiots sometimes.

[smallcleanrat]

That is very hard, and clearly they didn't act the way one would hope they would. However, I very much doubt this is personal to you-- it sounds more like they just don't know how to act around someone in distress, and unfortunately their response to their own distress and uncertainty in that situation is avoidance and inaction. That is very, very, common, especially when there is diffusion of responsibility (see, bystander effect). They are afraid of doing the wrong thing, so they do nothing, which is the wrong call in this case, but sounds like it comes from a place of lack of knowledge and fear rather than indifference or malice.

I can see the points you and alto_stratus are making, and they do make sense.

Still, having someone tell me I haven't "earned the right" to expect people to say hello to me (or, in his words, grace me with a "social handout") once in a while seems pretty personal. And it's hard to believe in this case that being ignored is not a product of indifference. After the episode passed, and things were relatively normal again, they still weren't really interacting with me. Not to ask how I was doing or even just to say hi. I may as well not exist.

As hard as your lab mate's words were to hear, having some more direct information about what they should do in different situations could be a good idea and empower them to act. When you are back in the lab, maybe write it down for them and post it by your desk in the lab so they know what to do in different situations? Maybe you could make some signs to use if they aren't able to talk-- e.g., "I'm in pain/unwell, please ______." (whatever it is you'd need them to do-- contact the health center, call 911, etc.)?

I've done this.

There was a day when I had a sudden onset of stabbing pains in chest and abdomen. My throat and tongue swelled, making it hard to breathe. I ended up curled on the floor of lab gasping and trembling for nearly an hour until the pain and swelling subsided enough I could get up again. People walked past me the entire time I lay there. It was a scary experience and wretchedly lonely. I asked about it afterwards and everyone said they didn't want to bother me if I wasn't feeling well. I begged them to please come ask me if I need help if I'm on the ground, because I may not be able to speak or move well enough to flag them down.

About a month later, I had another (fortunately shorter) episode. Again, everybody just walked past me lying on the floor. Again, people said they saw me there but weren't sure whether or not to intervene. So they went to the default action of ignoring me. They told me I need to explicitly ask for help.

It didn't make the slightest bit of difference. In my PI's case, I made a chart of possible issues that might arise in lab and actions other people could take that would help (including when it is probably warranted to call for medical assistance or walk me to the student clinic) and emailed him a copy. We also went over it in person. I especially emphasized that if there was any doubt or ambiguity at all to please ask if I need help! I explained that, even if it was hard to speak, I could signal with a hand or a head movement if I'm ok and just need a little time, and then they would know it was not an emergency. But if it were an emergency I might not be able to signal; I might not even be conscious. Please, please don't just walk past; don't just leave me there! Struggling to breathe while being completely ignored was terrifying and made me feel my life was worth nothing. If I had been lying there with a twisted ankle it wouldn't have affected me so strongly, but that's not what happened.

Not every lab member knows about my situation to the same level of detail, but what I have told them doesn't seem to matter much. I've said time and again that what I really need from them is not to be ignored. They don't have to directly help me with my health issues; they don't even have to acknowledge them. But just feeling connected to people through the little interactions (chit chat, the occasional social coffee break, etc.) would help me stay grounded and less overwhelmed. When I bring this up, people act as if it's a reasonable request and shouldn't be a problem. But it still doesn't happen.

I feel like I don't have a place there anymore. Like they are just waiting for me to remove myself so they don't have to go through the awkwardness of actively driving me out. I know that's probably mostly the depression talking, but it still hurts so much to not belong.

Anyway, hugs to you. You deserved better in these situations. I'm sorry people are kind of idiots sometimes.

Thanks, alto. I needed this.