The Venting Thread

[smallcleanrat]

I agree that it's helpful to tell people how to interact with you or how to intervene.  A lot of people don't know what to do in new situations - whether it's getting help for themselves or others.  These people in your lab do sound hopelessly clueless on a social level, but if that's what you're working with, you may need to give explicit directions. 
.....
Just a year ago, I was walking along the street and witnessed a rollover accident and did not know what to do. Others immediately sprang into action to pull people from the car and call 911. I waited on the sidelines, a little in shock, knowing I had no emergency training (other than that which said don't move people who might have been injured) and I'd need direction to help. I stayed with one of the families who was on the sidewalk until the police came. But I felt kind of useless.
.....

I'm sorry I keep coming back to this, but it's literally making me crazy. How explicit do directions need to be?

"If you see me in apparent distress, ESPECIALLY if I am on the ground (if I just feel a bit sick and need a rest, I'm going to find a place to sit down; lying on the filthy floor is NOT my way of saying "give me some space"), please take a few seconds to ask me if I need help. Please do not assume I can get up and seek help on my own or that I can pick up my phone and talk to emergency services myself. If it's not an emergency, I will give you some kind of signal to let you know you don't have to intervene. Otherwise, please help me get medical attention. There are situations in which I may be minimally responsive or not responsive at all, in which case, err on the side of caution and assume I need help [they keep expecting me to clearly and unambiguously say, "please help me"; I keep reminding them this is not always possible if a person is having an emergency medical situation]."

I don't know how else to explain this or how many reiterations it takes for the message to sink in. The first time I had breathing issues I was at home. The next time I was in lab I informed my PI what I had experienced and gave him a variation of the above as an emergency plan if something similar happened in lab. He seemed to understand and was on board with it. He still did nothing the first time it happened in lab (and I confirmed he had seen me). I spoke with him about it again, he seemed alarmed when I described the situation to him ("oh, I didn't realize it was something that bad") and said he would certainly check on me if it ever happened again ("definitely if you are on the floor"). And then, when it did happen again, he...did nothing (and again I verified that he had seen me). I don't know if too much time passed in between those two episodes and he just forgot what we had talked about, but it certainly did not make me feel like the valued member of the lab people have been claiming I am. People do more for stray dogs lying in ditches.

alto, in the scenario you described, at least you saw that other people seemed to know what action to take and were in motion to assist. No one in lab could say they saw someone else taking action and therefore decided to hang back because they did not know what to do. And when one person is a PI and another is the lab safety officer (in charge of making sure everybody gets training on how to respond and what numbers to call in an emergency), is it too much to expect that the reaction be more than nothing? Even just saying a few words to me...something that acknowledges my existence would have made the situation less unbearable.

And then for someone I had considered a friend to essentially tell me all of this was my own fault; that I need to be more "accountable" and "independent". I didn't do enough to make everybody feel comfortable taking action or talking to me about my issues, I didn't give people enough information to know what to do, I didn't get up and grab someone when I was having chest pains and trouble breathing (this one strikes me as unfair), I was expecting too much to want to be included in their small talk and workplace socializing... I'm honestly trying my best, but it's obviously nowhere near good enough. I don't know what else to do. I don't know if I should even go back to lab once it reopens. They may simply be too polite to say "we're sick of dealing with you; it would be best for the lab if you just left us alone for good."

All that talk about "don't be afraid to ask for help" "reach out to people when you are in crisis" "you shouldn't have to deal with this alone", it's all just catchphrases.

I believe in accountability and independence too. But I don't have the strength for it, not now. I've never been in such relentless pain before; I don't know how to keep enduring. I just want to feel like a human being who has something to offer, and the longer this goes on, the more remote that goal seems.

I don't know what to do with myself anymore.

[Puget]

I'm sorry that happened to you smallcleanrat, that all sounds scary and frustrating. I don't have an explanation for their behavior, which is really perplexing to me (especially the PI),  except to say again I doubt it is about you personally in any real way.
It seems like there are really two different issues here that that it might help to separate--

1. Staying physically safe. Your lab mates and PI have unfortunately shown you that you can't count on them for that, and presumably these episodes could happen elsewhere, so when you are back out in the world again, it seems like you need another way to summon help, like a life-alert button service.

2. Your emotional needs for human contact and connection. These are of course completely legitimate and reasonable. However, again your lab has shown that they are unfortunately not the people who are going to provide that for you. Again, I think this says more about them than about you. But I think you trying to accept that they are just not going to provide that could help you feel less pain when they fail to do so, and instead seek that contact elsewhere (not easy, especially right now, I know, but eventually through small steps).

[Larimar]

Chime to what Puget has said. Smallcleanrat, you deserve much better than what those jerks in your lab did! You may be feeling stuck, but neither the coronavirus pandemic nor your lab rotation (if I remember correctly, you are a grad student) will last forever! The stay-at-home orders will lift, you will graduate, and you will escape from your current situation. Keep prioritizing your health and staying safe.

Larimar

[alto_stratus]

smallcleanrat, I think I joined the conversation late. It's clear you've done a lot to inform your lab, and their behavior under the circumstances is ridiculous. I agree that it says more about them than you.

I've dealt with depression over the years. Part of my depression was rooted in cognitive distortions. The work I did on that was life-changing for me. But I also realized I was feeling totally depleted and devalued by the relationships I had. I needed to shift the center of my world to something else. I started by taking on some new activities that made me feel better about myself, and reaching out to some new people, and sticking with those who showed understanding and kindness. I found a therapist who could be my linchpin for 6 months to a year, to help me build out new, healthier social connections. I was a real "work in progress" for a while, but I kept taking the awkward baby steps forward, and eventually got myself into a different place. I was surprised and pleased to find there are better people out there. When I started to care less and put less stock into the negative relationships, they didn't bother me as much (I used to get so hooked by negative interactions). I derived value and meaning from a different place now.

I remember some of Jon Kabat-Zinn's mindfulness meditations (Wherever You Go, There You Are) made me feel better - like I could be who I was and take up space - that much was owed to me.

It is shocking when people are careless or jerks - but you can't fix them. You tried to show them how to be more human, and they didn't get it. Now you just have to try to minimize their impact on your life, and build your life out in other ways so you have those sources of support and good energy from other places.

Thinking of you.

[alto_stratus]

My vent: what is up with these chain emails? I don't think anyone I know would appreciate receiving those right now.

[EquineUlcers]

Totally agree with you. My inbox had 48 new emails, of which 45 were chain emails!

[paultuttle]

Between the 5-year-old next door who thinks "singing" means imitating a doorbell chime, and the roofers down the street who are now on their third house (!!!) in my neighborhood during the pandemic, and the city employees running a wood chipper on the other side of the park from our house (to take care of trees downed in the recent storm), I'm feeling rather like I'm in the middle of noise pollution hell.



<that said, I am glad I still have my hearing, endangered though it is at present>

[AmLitHist]

Between the 5-year-old next door who thinks "singing" means imitating a doorbell chime, and the roofers down the street who are now on their third house (!!!) in my neighborhood during the pandemic, and the city employees running a wood chipper on the other side of the park from our house (to take care of trees downed in the recent storm), I'm feeling rather like I'm in the middle of noise pollution hell.



<that said, I am glad I still have my hearing, endangered though it is at present>

Our version of this is the young single mom across the street, who gives her 6- or 7-year-old son (who is a total little hellion in every way) the keys to the minivan. She sends him outside alone so he can entertain himself by unlocking it and blasting the stereo at top volume or by hitting the button on the remote to make the horn beep. He also seems to enjoy setting the alarm, then running full-tilt at the van to slam into it and set the alarm off. 

Yesterday, he climbed in and fired up the engine. She came out of the house and caught him right as he started backing down the driveway, headed directly for our yard and my flower bed. I was outside and was not amused. She seemed more pissed at me than at him.  If I see him with the keys again, I'm calling the cops to get DCFS on her.

[clean]

My niece is 17.  She graduates next year. She has had a very expensive private school education.  She posted on The FaceTube that she has been painting and put them up on Ebay. She notes that the starting bid for these three paintings are 25$, 50$ and 75$.  I see this error most in non native speakers, but she has been taught English since her birth!!

Maybe it's me, but Im very annoyed when people misuse currency notation.  The only thing that bothers me more is when people try to list things for .99C (cents) .  Somehow THEY are not amused when I try to buy their product for a WHOLE penny!  On the penny it says One Cent.  One Cent is certainly worth more than .99 Cents! 

Isnt money supposed to be taught well before 2nd grade?

Where was the failing in her education?  What grade should she need to repeat before she is allowed to graduate?

[Cheerful]

Our version of this is the young single mom across the street, who gives her 6- or 7-year-old son (who is a total little hellion in every way) the keys to the minivan. She sends him outside alone so he can entertain himself by unlocking it and blasting the stereo at top volume or by hitting the button on the remote to make the horn beep. He also seems to enjoy setting the alarm, then running full-tilt at the van to slam into it and set the alarm off. 

Yesterday, he climbed in and fired up the engine. She came out of the house and caught him right as he started backing down the driveway, headed directly for our yard and my flower bed. I was outside and was not amused. She seemed more pissed at me than at him.  If I see him with the keys again, I'm calling the cops to get DCFS on her.

That's terrible, AmLitHist.  Sounds like that mom has some sort of mental deficiency.  Poor child.

[Parasaurolophus]

I'm really tired of all the emails asking when I will grade assignment x. The semester is over, and the grading deadline is April 27. You will get the mark by April 27. Leave. Me. Alone.

I don't usually get these, so I'm concluding it's a kind of insecurity or entitlement borne of moving online. But the thing is, moving online gave me a lot more to grade all at once, because stuff we would have done in class had to be redirected to a folder due at the end of the semester. So. PFO.

LATER EDIT: To be clear, it's clear to me I should have said something when I first started getting the emails, although I didn't think I'd have to. It's been a steady stream of 3-4 a day since a day or two after they were due.

[smallcleanrat]

Well, being unable to cry is no longer an issue.

Been trying to connect with labmates through casual chat. How's it going, what are you up to...that sort of thing. So far it hasn't led to much. Answers are brief, and so far I am always the one who has to initiate. But I know people are unusually preoccupied these days and that forming connections takes time.

Had an extremely painful conversation with a lab mate (the only one I considered myself close enough to to call a friend) on Slack after I broached the possibility of planning some kind of group social meet up over Zoom, because I thought it would be more social than the brief one on one chats. Certainly was able to cry after hearing his response. Crying was the only thing I was able to do last night. He did a very thorough dissection of what he viewed as my social deficiencies to explain why I was still more of an outsider than the others. Said I had not "earned the right" to expect them to talk to me. "If you're looking for social handouts, you won't get them." Handouts...like starting a conversation with me is charity work.

I wasn't under the illusion I had a close friendship with anyone in the lab. But I thought there was still some kind of connection; a casual friendship such that a little non-work socialization wasn't out of place. But I don't think I've even got that much.

It's been hard to meet people outside of work (before the pandemic) because I feel so sick all the time. I don't have a lot of activities outside of the lab. In lab, I made an effort. I asked people to grab lunch with me, tried to make small talk when I saw them, asked after pets and families and SOs, got a housewarming gift for someone who had just moved, once in a while brought treats in for everybody...I was still left out a lot, but I thought all that counted for...something.

Now I feel even more out of place, two years in, than I did on day 1, when I was a complete stranger to everyone.

*sigh*

Would anyone else characterize the following as a nonpology? I don't know how far to trust my own judgment these days.

I broke it down into its major components. Paraphrasing.

The Classic
'I'm sorry you felt upset.'

Maybe I said something wrong. But so did you!
'I don't hear you taking any accountability for how that conversation went.You got emotional, defensive, and blew it up all out of proportion. You didn't do anything to de-escalate and make things better.' The actual apology portion of the message was small compared to the portion of the message in which he dissected our conversation pointing out each moment in which he felt I could have handled things better.

Let me explain why what I said wasn't actually offensive. You just took things the wrong way.
'I acknowledge I shouldn't have used words with such negative connotations but you also misinterpreted my meaning which I think is unfair. I only said "IF you are looking for handouts". As long as you weren't expecting people to reach out to you then I agree you weren't doing anything wrong. It's only if you were expecting people to reach out that I would think you were in the wrong. I understand how you could have misunderstood, but I've explained this to you several times and you still act as if I said something bad. That really frustrates me.'

I understood the underlying message just fine. The underlying message itself was hurtful. The wording was just salt in the wound. I also explained myself multiple times on this point. I tapped out of the conversation when it was clear we were just talking past each other and he agreed we would "agree to disagree".

There probably are a number of ways I could have handled the situation better but it's too late to go back now. I don't quite know the words to describe what I'm feeling but...he knew I was vulnerable, depressed, and suicidal. I told him I found something he had said deeply hurtful. Why couldn't he just back off? Why was it so important I acknowledge that what he said "wasn't that bad" and that it was my reaction that was out of line, not his words?

When I had gotten to a point I was crying too hard to continue typing, I walked away from my computer. He was thoughtful enough to call my boyfriend to check whether I was safe. But then followed that by typing me a final message requesting we continue the conversation later.

Venting here in hopes of making it easier to let this incident go, as I know is best.

[Cheerful]

SCR, this quote from alto_stratus merits repeating.

It is shocking when people are careless or jerks - but you can't fix them. You tried to show them how to be more human, and they didn't get it. Now you just have to try to minimize their impact on your life, and build your life out in other ways so you have those sources of support and good energy from other places.
Thinking of you.

Venting here in hopes of making it easier to let this incident go, as I know is best.

Some people don't do apologies.  They just will not.  He sounds like such a person.

Yes, best to let this go.  This lab person doesn't sound like a good fit as a pal.  His "earned the right" and "handouts" comments earlier are red flags.  You can't make him be what you'd wish.  Move on.  This lab person is not the last person on Earth with whom to make friends.  Meanwhile, be your own best friend (and, hopefully, your boyfriend is a good friend).

Hope your weekend is nice with some of the serenity and beauty of nature included.

[smallcleanrat]

SCR, this quote from alto_stratus merits repeating.

It is shocking when people are careless or jerks - but you can't fix them. You tried to show them how to be more human, and they didn't get it. Now you just have to try to minimize their impact on your life, and build your life out in other ways so you have those sources of support and good energy from other places.
Thinking of you.

Venting here in hopes of making it easier to let this incident go, as I know is best.

Some people don't do apologies.  They just will not.  He sounds like such a person.

Yes, best to let this go.  This lab person doesn't sound like a good fit as a pal.  His "earned the right" and "handouts" comments earlier are red flags.  You can't make him be what you'd wish.  Move on.  This lab person is not the last person on Earth with whom to make friends.  Meanwhile, be your own best friend (and, hopefully, your boyfriend is a good friend).

Hope your weekend is nice with some of the serenity and beauty of nature included.

Venting on this thread did help to dissipate some of the jumble of hurt feelings and confused thoughts. I'm a lot calmer about it now.

I didn't ask him for an apology, but I did ask him how he felt about things. He did offer an apology (in the form of an actual apology, not a non-pology) for his word choice, but seemed far more passionate about getting an apology out of me and an admission that there was nothing wrong or hurtful about the sentiments he expressed (independent of wording). It would have been much easier to let it go if he stopped at "I still don't think I said anything wrong [aside from how I said it], but I am sorry you felt upset." I'm close to a lot of people with whom there is a mutual understanding that on certain topics we will likely never see eye-to-eye. It was his apparent need to get me to agree with him and to confess I had interpreted him "unfairly" that was causing me the most stress.

I did apologize to him for getting emotional in that initial conversation and for trying to argue my case when he would not accept my statement that what he had said was hurtful (since all this did was prolong a stressful conversation). He said he appreciated my apologies. But even now he is still asking me to explain why I found his remarks upsetting.

I don't need to be best buddies with my labmates. It would be nice, but I don't need that to happen. But I still think it's important to avoid tension and conflict whenever possible. And I think it will be highly demoralizing and disadvantageous to my science if I am frozen out of workplace-level socialization. Friendly small-talk tends to mix with science talk; people discuss how projects are going, recommend papers to read, bounce ideas off each other... I think being left out of that could mean diminished opportunities for me to develop as a scientist. Additionally, different lab members have different backgrounds and areas of expertise; it is expected we should be able to ask each other for help or advice if someone else is strong in methods or theory with which we are inexperienced. Lacking a basic level of collegiality would make those types of interactions awkward, at the least.

It would not hurt so much if things had been like this from the time I joined; or if a-sociality was just the culture of this lab. But there is a sense of real loss as the connections I had been forming over the last couple of years melted away when my health started to deteriorate. And it won't be easy going forward to watch the others talking, laughing, and going out as a group while I'm off to the side by myself. I know grad school "isn't forever" but I do have years of lab-time still ahead of me; it's going to be difficult to endure this way. I know I can try to put more effort into finding social connection outside of the lab (and I have been making efforts), but realistically I won't get much time with anyone else. The majority of my waking hours are spent in the lab. I know I should be able to endure a few years of loneliness; at earlier points in my life I know I could have. I don't know if I'm capable of it anymore. I don't know where to find the strength.

[sprout]

I know I should be able to endure a few years of loneliness; at earlier points in my life I know I could have. I don't know if I'm capable of it anymore. I don't know where to find the strength.

Bull-pucky (to that first sentence).  Of all the things you have going on, scr, this is categorically NOT something you should feel bad about.  Humans are social creatures - we need social connection.  And grad school is too long a period, and too formative a point in life, to just keep your head down, work, and be miserable.  You deserve to find your happy.  If it's no longer in this lab, maybe you'd be able to finish your work in a collaborator's lab.  Or maybe there's a neighboring lab down the hall with people who'll be more welcoming.