Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[Langue_doc]

Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.

Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.

Time for a post-midterm warning.

[EdnaMode]

Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.

Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.

Time for a post-midterm warning.

I have Stu's twin in one of my engineering courses. He consistently loses points for not using the correct template files. They're located in a "Classwork and Homework Standard Files" folder on our LMS. Other courses use the same or similar templates because we, as a faculty, developed some standard formatting rules for CAD drawings, lab reports, etc. In fact, he was in one of my courses last semester that used templates. He's told his advisor (who is a friend of mine) that 'Dr. Mode is MEAN and takes off points for nothing. It's just because she doesn't like me.' He showed his advisor the graded work, and his advisor told him that perhaps he should read the instructions and the rubric and if he follows the rules that will earn him more points. So far, he hasn't.

[mamselle]

One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.

In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.

In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.

Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.

But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.

M.

[EdnaMode]

One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.

In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.

In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.

Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.

But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.

M.

Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.

After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."

[mamselle]

You should wear a wire and replay the tape to the first class of each term.

;--}

M.

[apl68]

Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own.

I bet they sometimes make up some interesting symbols on their own.

[OneMoreYear]

After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."

For one of my advanced technical courses, on the first day, I do a talk about the strategies to succeed in the this course and the importance of the skills they will learn in this course for their professional development.  All information is based on feedback from previous students about how they made it through the difficult material and how they are using it now in their internship/jobs. I probably need to record the previous students themselves talking about these things--maybe students will believe it then.

[EdnaMode]

I actually do an anonymous survey with my seniors and they give feedback on what was useful from the introductory classes, what they've used at work and in their upper-division courses, etc., and share that with the first years. I think they pay a wee bit of attention to it, but I share it with them at the beginning of the semester. I'm thinking of also coming back to the survey results and sharing some of them again mid-semester to see if it helps reinforce the importance of standards.

And yes, some of the self-made symbols are quite entertaining!

[Caracal]

One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.

In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.

In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.

Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.

But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.

M.

Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.

After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."

Yeah, I think its legitimately hard to see the point of these sorts of things until you've been in a setting where you are reading and using other people's work in order to do your job and its much harder to do when they haven't done things carefully in the right format.

Few things are more maddening than reading a book or article where the author casually throws off some extremely relevant piece of information that could solve a problem you've been encountering in your work, you go look at the footnote, dig some book from the 1950s out of the library, go to the cited page and find....nothing relevant. Did they get the page wrong? Do I have to browse through this entire book to see if its in there somewhere? Did the writer screw up their notes and cite the wrong book? Or was this actually just a drug fueled hallucination they had?

[apl68]

One gets the feeling, not only among students, that some individuals haven't yet found the values exchange currency needed to let go of their outrage and find pathways to satisfaction, even if it involves some degree of conformity to norms.

In the arts, it's a communicativity issue. Your work can indeed be innovative and different, but you still need to engage with your audience on their terms as well as your own.

In organizational settings, it's the seductive allure of re-inventing wheels, whereby you believe you are doing something new and valid, but in fact, you're just ignoring all the precursorial work that's already been done, and wasting your (and others') time in the process.

Maybe, because it allows some small degree of innovation through, it is environmentally, contextually determined or beneficial, and so it continues.

But it's indeed a pain for those who have to educate to the norms.

M.

Trying to get the students to believe, especially as freshpeeps, that we're not making up rules just to see if they can follow them, is difficult. A lot of what we do in engineering is governed by standards. Yes, Stu, there is a standard way to dimension a CAD drawing. Yes, Stu, there are standard fonts and text sizes for certain types of reports. Yes, Stu, there are standard ways to express the conversion of units. Yes, Stu, there are standard symbols, you can't just make up your own. And on and on and on. Are some of the standards weird? Yes. But will you encounter them at work? Yes.

After they've had a co-op or internship experience, they come back much more accepting of standard formats. One of the favorite things I hear from students is along the lines of "I'm glad you made us learn about all the [standards] in our first year because although I hated it at the time, I use it now at work."

Yeah, I think its legitimately hard to see the point of these sorts of things until you've been in a setting where you are reading and using other people's work in order to do your job and its much harder to do when they haven't done things carefully in the right format.

That's one reason why it's advantageous for students to have had some kind of serious work experience before beginning their undergrad education.  They've already had a chance to become familiar with the realities of having to follow procedures at work.

[secundem_artem]

Students were given a formatted word template (MLA, first page) during the first week of class. They were also given a formatted template for their bibliography page.

Stu who still submits assignments that do not conform to the formatting and other requirements is now complaining that nothing Stu does is good enough. Stu, use the templates. Stu apparently needs a babysitter to read the modules and assignments so that Stu can find the templates. Stu has also twice ignored peer reviews that addressed the formatting issues. Stu doesn't seem to be aware of the existence of the templates.

Time for a post-midterm warning.

Dumb question so I beg your indulgence.

Why do faculty stress so heavily on reference formatting conventions?  They are really only ever used in academic writing which few students will do after they graduate.  Those who go on to graduate school are presumably bright enough to learn the convention of their particular discipline and use it in their academic work.  Undergrads who may be taking courses across STEM, the liberal arts, the social sciences and the health sciences are often faced with having to figure out multiple reference formats in a single semester.

My response to this is that I prefer students to use NLM, but they can use any format they are comfortable with and mistakes in formatting will not be held against them as long as I can find the original citation with minimal effort.

This seems to lower students' blood pressure and I can generally figure out where their source material came from easily enough.  I'll leave it to their graduate advisors to sort out the rest.

[the_geneticist]

Learning to follow directions, even ones that seem arbitrary, are a good life skill.  Most jobs have SOPs and forms that have to be completed in a certain way and by a certain time.  Charting patient records, entering insurance information, cashing in and out a cash register, logging food temperatures in a restaurant, etc.  Doing it they same way every time ensures consistency, will keep you from getting fired for not doing your job, and can CYA if there is a discrepancy or concern. 

[downer]

I used to spend lots of time in class going over citation format and I used to mark down students who got it wrong.

I still knock off points for egregious errors, and I do insist that giving a URL is not enough.

But I have become much more relaxed about citation format. I just say I need to have all the relevant info about the citation, and recommend APA.

I feel good about letting that part go. It allows me to focus more on other stuff.

[Langue_doc]

I used to spend lots of time in class going over citation format and I used to mark down students who got it wrong.

I still knock off points for egregious errors, and I do insist that giving a URL is not enough.

But I have become much more relaxed about citation format. I just say I need to have all the relevant info about the citation, and recommend APA.

I feel good about letting that part go. It allows me to focus more on other stuff.

Following citation conventions, whether MLA or APA, is a requirement for composition classes in our institution as well as in a couple of others where I've taught. A grade appeal was summarily dismissed a few years ago because the student had failed to follow even the most basic conventions. The student was also told that the grade should have been even lower because of the failure to follow the conventions in the final paper.

[Morden]

One year I forgot to teach specific documentation formats in a comp class (because of a combination of factors including trying to make up for sick time, fire drills, etc.) The assignment prompt still included the direction to use APA or MLA format. I noticed no difference whatsoever in the essays that came in.
I used to spend way too much time fixating on the specific details of citation, and not nearly enough time on the purpose of citation--it's there for the reader to be able to learn more about the topic if they choose to. And different discourse communities use shorthand because it's more efficient.