Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[apl68]

From what I've seen here, even outside of lab courses there's no longer much opportunity to be a "sage on the stage" in most academic settings.

The "Sage on the Stage" is exactly his wish!

I've recommended him for a non-majors discussion course that is sometimes difficult to find TAs for.  He's confident enough that I don't think the experience will crush his spirit, but I think it will knock him for a bit of a loop. . .

Good for you to offer him that necessary learning opportunity.

I guess he's the sort of student who learns well in a lecture format, and probably had some good lecturers as an undergrad.  No wonder he'd like to emulate those sorts of teachers.  It's what I wanted to do in grad school.  Instead, I spent all my TA time as a discussion section leader and grader.  And wasn't much good at all as a discussion leader.  It's actually probably a blessing for me and others that I failed to complete my PhD.

[the_geneticist]

I know this was an email, but I think it fits here:

Hello, my name is [super hopeful], i recently registered hoping the course was completely online. Ive moved away to [kinda far away town] and commuting was be very difficult. Is there anyway to make-up labs  or do the work online? Or order equipment to do over zoom?

All of our classes say if they are in-person, remote, hybrid, etc on the registration website.  It's in nice big font between the days the class meets & the name of the instructor.

I also sent a welcome announcement ("classes are in-person").
It's in the course description too.
And the syllabus ("[baskets 101] lab is only offered in-person.  There is no online, remote, or hybrid option.  If you cannot attend [baskets 101] lab in person, then you cannot take [baskets 101] lab this term")
And the syllabus quiz.


But stu is "super hopeful"!

[sinenomine]

I know this was an email, but I think it fits here:

Hello, my name is [super hopeful], i recently registered hoping the course was completely online. Ive moved away to [kinda far away town] and commuting was be very difficult. Is there anyway to make-up labs  or do the work online? Or order equipment to do over zoom?

All of our classes say if they are in-person, remote, hybrid, etc on the registration website.  It's in nice big font between the days the class meets & the name of the instructor.

I also sent a welcome announcement ("classes are in-person").
It's in the course description too.
And the syllabus ("[baskets 101] lab is only offered in-person.  There is no online, remote, or hybrid option.  If you cannot attend [baskets 101] lab in person, then you cannot take [baskets 101] lab this term")
And the syllabus quiz.


But stu is "super hopeful"!

And about to be super disappointed! ;)

[Chemystery]

I know this was an email, but I think it fits here:

Hello, my name is [super hopeful], i recently registered hoping the course was completely online. Ive moved away to [kinda far away town] and commuting was be very difficult. Is there anyway to make-up labs  or do the work online? Or order equipment to do over zoom?

All of our classes say if they are in-person, remote, hybrid, etc on the registration website.  It's in nice big font between the days the class meets & the name of the instructor.

I also sent a welcome announcement ("classes are in-person").
It's in the course description too.
And the syllabus ("[baskets 101] lab is only offered in-person.  There is no online, remote, or hybrid option.  If you cannot attend [baskets 101] lab in person, then you cannot take [baskets 101] lab this term")
And the syllabus quiz.


But stu is "super hopeful"!

I had a student last fall who was using some leave time for the first few weeks of the semester.  He had arranged with his boss that he would be allowed to leave work to attend lab and to take exams, but would not be able to attend lecture after the leave time ended. 

In the end, after multiple queries, I told him that he was welcome to have a classmate record the lecture for him.  As far as I know, he didn't.  The semester progressed more or less as you would expect.  He did not fail the course, but he also did not earn the necessary grade to continue to the next [more difficult] course in the sequence, which he had already registered for, presumably with no intention of attending lecture.  I am waiting to see if he signs up again this fall.

[the_geneticist]

I know this was an email, but I think it fits here:

Hello, my name is [super hopeful], i recently registered hoping the course was completely online. Ive moved away to [kinda far away town] and commuting was be very difficult. Is there anyway to make-up labs  or do the work online? Or order equipment to do over zoom?

All of our classes say if they are in-person, remote, hybrid, etc on the registration website.  It's in nice big font between the days the class meets & the name of the instructor.

I also sent a welcome announcement ("classes are in-person").
It's in the course description too.
And the syllabus ("[baskets 101] lab is only offered in-person.  There is no online, remote, or hybrid option.  If you cannot attend [baskets 101] lab in person, then you cannot take [baskets 101] lab this term")
And the syllabus quiz.


But stu is "super hopeful"!

And about to be super disappointed! ;)

Stu has "promised" they will be in class today.  But that they will be "running late".
Stu is going to be super, duper disappointed when they find out that late = you can't participate

[the_geneticist]

Nailed it!
Stu arrived more than 20 minutes late, didn't know which room he was supposed to be in, and was SHOCKED I wouldn't let him participate.  I told him to email me & I'll let him do the one-time-only online makeup lab.
Stu sent an email saying that he drove 2.5 hours only for 'the [first name] themself' to 'deny him entry'.  And since we have no tolerance for allowing late folks to participate, he is considering dropping*.
Dude.
I am [first name] aka "Dr. Geneticist".  I introduced myself to you.
Did you think the person you talked with was somehow not the person you emailed?

*Stu is a super senior who needs my freshmen level [baskets 101] lab to graduate

[AmLitHist]

*Stu is a super senior who needs my freshmen level [baskets 101] lab to graduate

^Ah, that's a damn shame, it is.

Way too long* for details here, but I have a similarly clueless student with no hope in hell of passing Comp I this summer. She's sub-literate (can't read/understand simple instructions, even after 3-4 emails from me on each assignment trying to answer her questions and get her to do what's required}; has way more D/F/Ws than passing grades on her transcript; and is an Access student. She comes into the summer with the past 2 consecutive semesters on academic probation and has failed this class twice already. And some idiot advisor let her take 3 heavy classes (mine, a math class, and human growth/development) in the 8-week summer session.

My gripe? I've been trying to get her to drop after she talks with an advisor (who might be able to get through to her). She harangued me enough to wear me down to schedule a Teams meeting this morning. . . which she realized at the last minute conflicted with a doctor's appointment. Fine--I rescheduled for an hour later, when she assured me she could make it. Then she emailed 10 minutes after that time to say she was stopping "to do a couple of things" on the way home from her appointment, if (I) could wait. I offered to wait an hour, but she wouldn't be able to make that, either. 

Tough shit, Student--I am not sitting here by the computer so I can jump at the instant you say you're available to meet. I told me to email her concerns to me and we can start the conversation there.  And by "conversation," I mean, I'm going to tell her, in no uncertain terms, that she needs to withdraw, now. If she tries to drag it out, I'm liable to add that I don't appreciate her wasting my time with all the no-shows today. (Of course, this assumes she actually contacts me; I fully expect her to act like none of this happened and just keep turning in garbage for the rest of the semester.)

I try to be patient and helpful, but enough, already. It's just frustrating when stuff like this comes back to bite me. At least I have an email and electronic trail to show the dean when the student goes to her to complain about me refusing to help her.
-----
* Unfortunately, this really is the short version.

[Langue_doc]

Sending good wishes to those of you banging your heads here and also on the Favorite Email thread. I've had students who thought that online classes=all I need is my phone, and that they're doing you a favor by coming to class. I once had to spend hours documenting a student's lack of attendance because Stu who would come to class, leave his backpack on the seat, and then disappear for most of the class complained that I hadn't taught him anything, so he was entitled to a refund (this was at the instigation of one of the admincritters). I had to dig out all kinds of documentation, emails to Stu about his attendance, missed assignments, feedback on assignments that showed that Stu hadn't been paying attention in class, early warning reports, so Stu didn't get his refund. Fortunately for me, all assignments had to be submitted on the LMS, so Stu couldn't claim that the grading was harsh or unfair.

[the_geneticist]

*Stu is a super senior who needs my freshmen level [baskets 101] lab to graduate

^Ah, that's a damn shame, it is.

Way too long* for details here, but I have a similarly clueless student with no hope in hell of passing Comp I this summer. She's sub-literate (can't read/understand simple instructions, even after 3-4 emails from me on each assignment trying to answer her questions and get her to do what's required}; has way more D/F/Ws than passing grades on her transcript; and is an Access student. She comes into the summer with the past 2 consecutive semesters on academic probation and has failed this class twice already. And some idiot advisor let her take 3 heavy classes (mine, a math class, and human growth/development) in the 8-week summer session.

My gripe? I've been trying to get her to drop after she talks with an advisor (who might be able to get through to her). She harangued me enough to wear me down to schedule a Teams meeting this morning. . . which she realized at the last minute conflicted with a doctor's appointment. Fine--I rescheduled for an hour later, when she assured me she could make it. Then she emailed 10 minutes after that time to say she was stopping "to do a couple of things" on the way home from her appointment, if (I) could wait. I offered to wait an hour, but she wouldn't be able to make that, either. 

Tough shit, Student--I am not sitting here by the computer so I can jump at the instant you say you're available to meet. I told me to email her concerns to me and we can start the conversation there.  And by "conversation," I mean, I'm going to tell her, in no uncertain terms, that she needs to withdraw, now. If she tries to drag it out, I'm liable to add that I don't appreciate her wasting my time with all the no-shows today. (Of course, this assumes she actually contacts me; I fully expect her to act like none of this happened and just keep turning in garbage for the rest of the semester.)

I try to be patient and helpful, but enough, already. It's just frustrating when stuff like this comes back to bite me. At least I have an email and electronic trail to show the dean when the student goes to her to complain about me refusing to help her.
-----
* Unfortunately, this really is the short version.

Dang.  At least here they student would be denied a third attempt unless they could show extraordinary challenges in previous attempts and a clear plan for success.

Document, document, document.

I do think everyone can learn.  I'll provide the goals, structure, & guidance.  But I'm not dragging anyone kicking and screaming towards success when they are determined to fail.

[Sea_Ice]

Oh, they are not determined to fail! They are determined (and have been trained to believe, without any thinking, or any memory of their past, being involved) that you will pass them this time. All that is required to ensure success are formulaic conversations, such as assuring you that they care about their grades - and maybe to spout the phrases learned from various academic coaches about what they are going to do (use this method of notetaking, do X, & Y, & Z...) despite never doing any of that.


THIS time it will work!  And then, having (finally...) passed all required classes, they will automatically be accepted into a highly competitive program that will train them to do <whatever> and provide social prestige, a massive salary and permanent job security.

But, we all know this... I don't need to address the choir.

[apl68]

Oh, they are not determined to fail! They are determined (and have been trained to believe, without any thinking, or any memory of their past, being involved) that you will pass them this time. All that is required to ensure success are formulaic conversations, such as assuring you that they care about their grades - and maybe to spout the phrases learned from various academic coaches about what they are going to do (use this method of notetaking, do X, & Y, & Z...) despite never doing any of that.


THIS time it will work!  And then, having (finally...) passed all required classes, they will automatically be accepted into a highly competitive program that will train them to do <whatever> and provide social prestige, a massive salary and permanent job security.

But, we all know this... I don't need to address the choir.

This reminds me of one definition of insanity--doing the same thing that has never worked over and over again in the belief that it will work this time.  Or maybe just a very, very shallow learning curve.

[the_geneticist]

Oh, they are not determined to fail! They are determined (and have been trained to believe, without any thinking, or any memory of their past, being involved) that you will pass them this time. All that is required to ensure success are formulaic conversations, such as assuring you that they care about their grades - and maybe to spout the phrases learned from various academic coaches about what they are going to do (use this method of notetaking, do X, & Y, & Z...) despite never doing any of that.


THIS time it will work!  And then, having (finally...) passed all required classes, they will automatically be accepted into a highly competitive program that will train them to do <whatever> and provide social prestige, a massive salary and permanent job security.

But, we all know this... I don't need to address the choir.

Sigh.  One of those students who KNOWS what they ought to do, but just never does those things.  I hate those conversations.  Stu is always "sad & confused" that they are not doing well after the first midterm.

They typically answer "No" to most of the questions:

"Did you read [X] before class?"
"Did you take notes in class?"
"Did you go to class?"
"Did you look at the posted slides/practice problems/videos/etc. from that class?"
"Did you try the practice problems/homework/case study/etc?"
"Did you go to the tutoring center/TA office hours/writing center/etc?"

Takes a lot to purposely ignore/not use the support & guidance.  That's what I mean by a student who is determined to fail.

[FishProf]

Tale as old as time.

"To succeed in this class, I recommend you do X, Y, and Z"

Stu:  DO I HAVE TO?

"No.  You can choose to fail."

[Langue_doc]

"You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink."

[apl68]

"You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink."

I have heard it said that you can salt his oats.  Although what it would take to do that in this situation and with this student, I couldn't say.

I will say that blowing off a four-year full scholarship to college and then spending years out in the real world trying to get by without an education salted my brother's oats with regard to education.  When he got out of the military, he went back to school and got a useful degree, and didn't mess around about it.