Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

My two cents:

I would move this to the next level and include campus police in your emails and copies of the videos. I would also include phrases like, "repetitive, inappropriate, and abusive interactions . . ."

In short, this isn't a personal problem you have with the student; this is a professional concern you have about a student's aggressive and abnormal behavior and possible mental health concerns.

Full disclosure: I'm tenured, and our campus police chief has told us to report this kind of abnormal, aggressive behavior. He has told us that probably all that will happen will be a campus report that sits in someone's desk; but it's good to let students know they're creating concerns that are vibing beyond the classroom, and it's a chance to get them help if they need it.

Also, we've had a couple of school shootings in our region, so the bar for inappropriate behavior from students is mighty low.

Good luck with this.

Thanks. That's a good idea.

[Langue_doc]

My two cents:

I would move this to the next level and include campus police in your emails and copies of the videos. I would also include phrases like, "repetitive, inappropriate, and abusive interactions . . ."

In short, this isn't a personal problem you have with the student; this is a professional concern you have about a student's aggressive and abnormal behavior and possible mental health concerns.

Full disclosure: I'm tenured, and our campus police chief has told us to report this kind of abnormal, aggressive behavior. He has told us that probably all that will happen will be a campus report that sits in someone's desk; but it's good to let students know they're creating concerns that are vibing beyond the classroom, and it's a chance to get them help if they need it.

Also, we've had a couple of school shootings in our region, so the bar for inappropriate behavior from students is mighty low.

Good luck with this.

Thanks. That's a good idea.

Talk to your union, if you have one. These incidents should be reported to everyone up the chain of command, as it would be considered to be border-line violent as far as campus is concerned. Include phrasing such as "hostile work environment" or something similar in your communications.

[kaysixteen]

We here haven't actually seen the vid, but it did appear that the language was crude but not threatening, and various posters have had different takes as to whether such language would be tolerated on their campuses.  I am not sure that anything the kid has done would warrant police intervention, which bar would be appropriately high.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

We here haven't actually seen the vid, but it did appear that the language was crude but not threatening, and various posters have had different takes as to whether such language would be tolerated on their campuses.  I am not sure that anything the kid has done would warrant police intervention, which bar would be appropriately high.

I'm just worried about escalation. It can happen. The kid was totally belligerent just because he felt like it. I just don't want it to go to the next level.

[kaysixteen]

I get that.   Just make sure you do not involve actual cops without clear justification.   Telling the professor to go bleep himself just does not warrant any sort of police record handicapping the student going forward.

[fishbrains]

Pre-Columbine or pre-Virginia Tech, sure. Now, you don't want to be that faculty member who didn't report.

My experience has been that the police have evolved as well. They are not coming in all SWAT and stuff. They want to make sure everybody is okay. Not 100%. But a whole lot different than 20-25 years ago.

[kaysixteen]

Report what, that the kid told him to go bleep himself?  Overzealous cops may act stupidly, which may as well ratchet up the situation and ultimately make kid do something that he could actually get into real legal trouble for.

[ciao_yall]

He was behaving in an unusual manner and showing sign of mental illness. That's enough to get Student Conduct involved.  Campus Police won't arrest him but they will certainly have him on their radar because he may be behaving badly elsewhere and it may escalate.

When my nephew was 3 he was visiting and he wanted to call his dad. The answering machine came on and he asked "what should I say?" I said "Whatever you want." He giggled and said "Poopoo! Stupid!"

That behavior is fine for a 3-year-old but a young adult, when his PROFESSOR WHO IS GRADING HIM is likely to see it?

That boy is a few fries short of a Happy Meal. A half-bubble off plumb. The cheese done slid off the cracker.

[kaysixteen]

You may well be right about this.  I am wondering how the fact that a student who demonstrates mental illness-derived offensive comments at his professor should properly expect that said professor, when grading his term paper, should be allowed to downgrade said term paper on the basis of said student's mental-illness-derived unprofessional conduct?

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

He was behaving in an unusual manner and showing sign of mental illness. That's enough to get Student Conduct involved.  Campus Police won't arrest him but they will certainly have him on their radar because he may be behaving badly elsewhere and it may escalate.

When my nephew was 3 he was visiting and he wanted to call his dad. The answering machine came on and he asked "what should I say?" I said "Whatever you want." He giggled and said "Poopoo! Stupid!"

That behavior is fine for a 3-year-old but a young adult, when his PROFESSOR WHO IS GRADING HIM is likely to see it?

That boy is a few fries short of a Happy Meal. A half-bubble off plumb. The cheese done slid off the cracker.

Yes! ALL of this!

[FishProf]

Reporting this student at FishProfU would put him on Campus Police's radar, and they ARE actual cops.  Reporting troublesome behavior is part of my job.  Deciding the larger consequences are someone else's.

[apl68]

He was behaving in an unusual manner and showing sign of mental illness. That's enough to get Student Conduct involved.  Campus Police won't arrest him but they will certainly have him on their radar because he may be behaving badly elsewhere and it may escalate.

When my nephew was 3 he was visiting and he wanted to call his dad. The answering machine came on and he asked "what should I say?" I said "Whatever you want." He giggled and said "Poopoo! Stupid!"

That behavior is fine for a 3-year-old but a young adult, when his PROFESSOR WHO IS GRADING HIM is likely to see it?

That boy is a few fries short of a Happy Meal. A half-bubble off plumb. The cheese done slid off the cracker.

Exactly.  Having certain standards for behavior and acceptable language of respect toward others isn't just prudery or trying to foist particular cultural values off on others.  If students or patrons can't show elementary self-control and respect for others, it not only downgrades others' experience, it suggests that there's something wrong with them that could escalate dangerously. 

Praying that you will find a good solution to this situation, EPW.  I know that it's upsetting and threatening.  Make sure your administration knows about this, and if they fail to take action and it continues, keep after them about it.  They need to learn to take this stuff seriously, if they don't already.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

He was behaving in an unusual manner and showing sign of mental illness. That's enough to get Student Conduct involved.  Campus Police won't arrest him but they will certainly have him on their radar because he may be behaving badly elsewhere and it may escalate.

When my nephew was 3 he was visiting and he wanted to call his dad. The answering machine came on and he asked "what should I say?" I said "Whatever you want." He giggled and said "Poopoo! Stupid!"

That behavior is fine for a 3-year-old but a young adult, when his PROFESSOR WHO IS GRADING HIM is likely to see it?

That boy is a few fries short of a Happy Meal. A half-bubble off plumb. The cheese done slid off the cracker.

Exactly.  Having certain standards for behavior and acceptable language of respect toward others isn't just prudery or trying to foist particular cultural values off on others.  If students or patrons can't show elementary self-control and respect for others, it not only downgrades others' experience, it suggests that there's something wrong with them that could escalate dangerously. 

Praying that you will find a good solution to this situation, EPW.  I know that it's upsetting and threatening.  Make sure your administration knows about this, and if they fail to take action and it continues, keep after them about it.  They need to learn to take this stuff seriously, if they don't already.

Thanks all. Apparently this kid has a record...

[fishbrains]

The institutional move from seeing a situation like this as a "classroom management" concern the instructor needs to deal with on their own to now seeing such a situation as a college-wide concern has been one of the biggest changes in higher ed in the last 20-25 years--at least in my experience.

It took some school shootings, a few lawsuits, and some fortunate retirements, but it's been a good change. It's also forced me to get over the "nobody like a rat" mentality to one of "let's move people towards the help they need."

[AmLitHist]

The institutional move from seeing a situation like this as a "classroom management" concern the instructor needs to deal with on their own to now seeing such a situation as a college-wide concern has been one of the biggest changes in higher ed in the last 20-25 years--at least in my experience.

It took some school shootings, a few lawsuits, and some fortunate retirements, but it's been a good change. It's also forced me to get over the "nobody like a rat" mentality to one of "let's move people towards the help they need."

Spot on, Fishbrains. I've always had a lot of "behavior issues" students at my campus, but pre-COVID (maybe around 2016 or so) I had a young woman who started the kind of nonsense that EPW has experienced, but mine was in a F2F class on a Friday (i.e., hardly anyone else in the buildings at the time of my class).

I immediately started the paper trail and didn't get much help, until after several escalating issues in class and via email. I showed up one Friday after 3 weeks of the student's nonsense and told my dean that I was refusing to go and teach class unless and until security (who are also actual cops) were present to keep me and my students safe. I had requested the security presence earlier, but the campus VP insisted I was overreacting, even after the student had a violent outburst the previous week and left mid-class, screaming that she would "come back and get every one of you M-F's" before the semester was over.

That same day when I refused to teach, after calling my union, I also called the campus police chief - who had heard nothing about the issue from any admins - and she flipped when she heard what had happened. The chief immediately came to my classroom, got statements from all my students (many of whom were more worried than even I had been), and made sure I had a security escort to and from all of my classes and to my car, and security posted outside that particular class, for the rest of the term.

Gee, I wonder why that iteration of the campus leadership didn't like me? /s 

Still, it was better than letting it go and end up turning into something much worse. As it was, the student never came back, but within a couple of weeks of the final incident in my class, she was all over the local news for having shot two other women, stabbing a man, and beating a cop who'd answered that 911 call before backup arrived on the scene.

I will happily admit to being a s*&t disturber with admin about petty things (in a "malicious compliance" sort of way). But when it comes to serious issues of safety, either my own or that of students in my classrooms, I don't play. Things have gotten a bit better in recent years, not least because a couple of other assaults on our other campuses were mishandled and got us lots of bad press in the intervening years. (Some admin heads also rolled over those, which helped change the climate, too.)