Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[onthefringe]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

[Zeus Bird]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

[EdnaMode]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.

[poiuy]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

For this kind of reason, I have a provision in my syllabi that students who who don't complete Y assignments, will get dropped from the class.  My classes are online asynchronous, so physical attendance is not an issue, though course content views are visible.

If students haven't completed most assignments before the drop date, I send them a couple of warning emails, and if I don't hear back, they get dropped.  That way, their GPA gets protected, their financial aid is less affected, though IDK what happens to their student loans.

Sometimes the ghost students don't even realize that they need to drop or know how to drop. Others just don't care and one has to wonder why they signed up for college in the first place.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

[Caracal]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.

My ghost students very rarely show up to the last exam. I'll have people who attend very sporadically but do take exams throughout the semester, but the ones who are gone are generally gone.

[apl68]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

This is one source of resentment over student loan forgiveness programs. 

[Langue_doc]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

Our students are not administratively withdrawn. We are required to put in a report around midterm if they have never shown up, and if/when they fail, we have to report last date of participation, but otherwise they just take up a seat and waste someone's money. I do have a colleague at another institution who does not count coming to the final as last date of attendance and very cheerfully reports them as not attending/participating all semester. No one has ever called him on it.

My ghost students very rarely show up to the last exam. I'll have people who attend very sporadically but do take exams throughout the semester, but the ones who are gone are generally gone.

In our state, we have to submit "verification of attendance" reports around the end of the second week of classes. No-shows at this point are administratively dropped. After that, depending on the institution, students who continue to be absent can be withdrawn around the middle of the semester. We can withdraw students who have not attended/submitted any assignment during the course of three weeks or so unless they have compelling reasons for such absences. Needless to say, we are required to take attendance because we have to enter the last date attended when submitting reports/withdrawals.

[marshwiggle]

Had a student show up to the final exam this AM, he had not been to class in a month, and did not turn in a final project. He finished his exam in less than 15 minutes, it took everyone else around an hour to an hour and a half. So, out of curiosity, I took a quick peek at his exam, best guess is he earned less than 10% considering the questions he skipped. Why did he even bother? I don't get it. Oh well, less for me to grade, I guess.

I once had a student who had never attended class or turned in anything all semester come to the final. He answered the first question and then left. Got a 2% course grade.

Doesn't your institution administratively withdraw such students?

Where I am IF the stduent does not engage at all during  the first week and IF the faculty member fills out the paperwork, the student gets withdrawn. Otherwise the student hangs on the books and at the end you are supposed to give them a special kind of failing grade that indicates which week they ghosted. That failure due to non-attendance can retroactively screw up financial aid, so some savvy ghost students come "take" the final in order to get a "real" fail instead of a "nonattendance" fail

Approximately 10% of my students fall into the ghost category.  Our administration will not take the initiative in formally withdrawing them, even after faculty report chronic non-attendance.  I routinely have students who ghost all their classes for multiple semesters.  In 10 years these students will be rudely awakened by the "Ghost of Student Loan Defaults-Yet-To-Come" because our administration lets them stay enrolled.

Is there some sort of perverse symbiosis here where the students want to stay "officially" registered for financial aid and the administration wants to have the students "officially" registered for their funding, so it's in nobody's best interest to admit reality?

[Zeus Bird]

[/quote]

Is there some sort of perverse symbiosis here where the students want to stay "officially" registered for financial aid and the administration wants to have the students "officially" registered for their funding, so it's in nobody's best interest to admit reality?
[/quote]

This sounds like the most plausible explanation.  It's the financial analogue to grade inflation, only with actual dollars that someone somewhere will pay for upfront or in the future.

[kaysixteen]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

[marshwiggle]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.

[marshwiggle]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.

What would make sense, and still be quite flexible, would be to drop people administratively if/when they reach a point where they cannot mathematically pass. That would work for just about any way of running a course as long as sufficient grades were finalized some time before the final exam.

[ciao_yall]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

Depends on the institution. We have 18-week semesters and are asked to drop students by Week 14 "who are not actively participating in class." That W goes on their record and triggers a financial aid freeze/review.

If they hang on until after Week 14 then disappear we have the option of giving them an F, which is an honestly-earned tried-but-couldn't-do-it F, or an FW which is treated like a W.

[mythbuster]

12 students in a class of 45 scored 45% or less on the final exam. The low was a 29! This was the final exam where I told them to study their previous midterms and included MANY verbatim questions from said midterms.

Oy Vey- at least they are unlikely to be your nurse anytime in the future.