Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[Caracal]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.

I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.

I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.

Maybe I need to work at your place. Our admins expect us to keep up with this stuff and let our admin. assistants know so they can contact students who ghost, BUT we can't withdraw anyone.

[onehappyunicorn]

What are the actual laws wrt universities' responsibilties to ensure that this does not happen, that ghosters are not allowed to continue their behaviors long-term, and thereby the schools continue to take advantage of ignorant or financially needy, etc., young people, for their money?

I would guess the problem is the vagueness in how someone ghosting would be identified, given the great range in how courses are taught, evaluated, etc. Any rules that could be made would probably frustrate many faculty who do things in an unconventional way.

It would be nice if there were some kind of 'no contact' policy that could be implemented instead of waiting until the end of the semester. Say, for example, a student drops off the face of the Earth for 2 business weeks with no contact- it would be nice if we could report that and have the student removed from the course. The student could re-enroll with permission from the Dean (assuming there was some kind of emergency/illness, etc.). BUT, we don't have that kind of policy. It would be nice.

I usually teach 140+ students a semester without any TAs so this kind of policy would be a pain for me to manage. If it was after 4 weeks and after 10 weeks of the semester or something, that would be fine, but if it was something I was supposed to be constantly keeping track of that would be a significant burden.

Maybe I need to work at your place. Our admins expect us to keep up with this stuff and let our admin. assistants know so they can contact students who ghost, BUT we can't withdraw anyone.

We are required to withdraw a student if they miss more than 12.5% of the course without progress or making any contact (so two weeks for our seated sections). There are, of course, issues with this but it did solve a lot of problems with students abusing financial aid...

[Anon1787]

I learned the hard way that recycling any substantial portion of a paper from a different course does not technically qualify as a violation of academic integrity at my university, so I now mention it explicitly in assignments.

[FishProf]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

[the_geneticist]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Wow.  Just wow.

My "I decide to skip the final so I could study for [not this class]" student earned a C.  I might have to revise my syllabus to include "you must pass the final to pass the class".  But considering they BARELY earned that C (had an A before they made an epically bad choice), I might not need to bother.

[FishProf]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Wow.  Just wow.

My "I decide to skip the final so I could study for [not this class]" student earned a C.  I might have to revise my syllabus to include "you must pass the final to pass the class".  But considering they BARELY earned that C (had an A before they made an epically bad choice), I might not need to bother.

At least part of the "Fail the final, fail the course" is a preemptive strike against students bailing 2/3 of the way through and coasting to a Pass.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

[bio-nonymous]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off

Scary.

[lilyb]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off

Scary.

I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.

[Langue_doc]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off

Scary.

I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.

Learned helplessness? I've been seeing a lot of this over the past several years. 

[sinenomine]

I'm amazed at the students who put tons of time into assignments worth 5% of their grade and totally blow off the one worth 20%, after which they're baffled by the effect on their course grade.

[apl68]

I just got an email from a student who was confused about whether she passed or not.

My policy is you have to pass the final to pass the course, but that is a necessary, not a sufficient condition.

So, with her stellar 65% on the final, she ended up with a  27% in the course, but wants to know if she passed.

She COULD NOT HAVE PASSED even with a 100%.

Gotta' love it. How can you get in to college and not understand basic Math (I'm talkin' addition, subtraction, multiplication and division)? Students should be able to calculate their grades. My final grade calculation is purely additive (minus lowest test, etc.) and students STILL cannot figure it out. Geez!

True! /rant: Sadly I have graduate medical professional school students who cannot figure out how to average their grades and apply simple rules involving addition. They are mystified that in my class the LMS is not able to do it for them... Soon to be YOUR medical professional... ;) Isn't BASIC algebra a generic college requirement? Never mind that these particular students mostly took calculus... /rant_off

Scary.

I have taught one of those first-year Intro to College type classes and devoted an entire class period to calculating grades. I tried to have them work through different weighted percentage and point accumulation scenarios, with hypothetical grades in each category. I'm at a reasonably selective institution.
About 40% of the class could do these. The rest threw up their hands; "I can't do math." But so many of them took algebra and Calc in high school (as bio-nonymous notes)? Many of them also say that they've had training in Excel. These would be very basic Excel formulas.

Learned helplessness? I've been seeing a lot of this over the past several years.

That many students are math-illiterate is hardly surprising in the U.S.  A large proportion of our nation's high school grads have simply been given a pass and shoved out the door to make way for the next batch.  That students who've taken and passed advanced math classes in high school still can't do such basic stuff is disturbing.  Surely students who took advanced math classes weren't just socially promoted?

[apl68]

I'm amazed at the students who put tons of time into assignments worth 5% of their grade and totally blow off the one worth 20%, after which they're baffled by the effect on their course grade.

Guess they figure an assignment's an assignment, you only need to complete so many to pass, so why not do the easiest ones and avoid the hard ones?