Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[dr_codex]

But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.

I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.

Ah, the "what do I have to lose?" case.

I have had some really, truly miserable student life-events this semester. It is awful, but it does help me to keep perspective.

>>>>>>>>>

By contrast to the people with real problems, Mr.-Charming-Mostly-Comes-To-Class-and-Asks-Questions-Into-the-Zoom-Void.

CMCTCAAQITZV, after literally months of my attempts to intervene, to the point where I have tried to find out how to administratively drop a student from my class...

CMCTCAAQITZV pipes up, at the end of a Zoom class when there are still about a dozen folks listening in: "I can't pass this course, can I?" 

Well... NO! NO, no you cannot. You couldn't tomorrow, cannot today, could not 2 MONTHS AGO when we had the very same conversation.

...

So, now it's out in the open. I said it. We all heard it.

<beat>

Stu's response...

"So, I'll see you at the final?"

[Caracal]

But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.

I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if you followed students like this along with a comparison group of students who simply vanished at some point in the semester. I wonder if the vanishing students would be more likely to eventually get their act together and graduate. It probably isn't a good decision to enroll in courses and then not finish, but at least the vanishing students aren't lying to themselves

[marshwiggle]

But why is Dear Student turning in the final project? There is absolutely no way to pass the course.

I had a student last semester who literally never turned in a single assignment, took the first exam (which she did poorly on), didn't take the second exam at all, ignored all attempts at contact from me and her advisor all semester, and then showed up to take the final exam, which she predictably failed. Even if she had gotten 100% on it she wouldn't have come within a mile of passing though. And then, after the semester was over, she sent me and her advisor a long sob story email asking to make up all the work she missed--the magical thinking runs deep in some students.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if you followed students like this along with a comparison group of students who simply vanished at some point in the semester. I wonder if the vanishing students would be more likely to eventually get their act together and graduate. It probably isn't a good decision to enroll in courses and then not finish, but at least the vanishing students aren't lying to themselves

They may not be that different. The vanishing students may have been "planning" to write the final, and then forgot about it, or slept in, or whatever.

My hunch would be ones who stop participating partway through but don't actually drop the course are in some serious form of denial, regardless of whether they make some sort of "Hail Mary" effort at the bitter end.

[cathwen]

I have a student with a 17% average in the course.  He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm.  However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons?  Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I have a student with a 17% average in the course.  He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm.  However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons?  Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.

Could be. Who knows? I have a lab student who only does prelab quizzes despite me sending email about not turning in labs. Stu never responds (or reads email?).

[dr_codex]

I have a student with a 17% average in the course.  He hasn't turned in anything since before the midterm.  However, he logs in on a regular basis—perhaps to document last day of attendance for financial aid reasons?  Well, it's not my problem, but it does make me shake my head.

Could be. Who knows? I have a lab student who only does prelab quizzes despite me sending email about not turning in labs. Stu never responds (or reads email?).

Students sometimes have reasons for sticking with courses that they know they will fail, and it isn't always magical thinking.

Financial aid is a possibility. So is an International visa. So is maintaining a course load so that they can keep their housing.

And sometimes they know that they are going to have to pass the class eventually, so they might as well get something out of it this time around. Just knowing what the assignments and exams look like is a huge benefit.

[apl68]

I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.

[arcturus]

I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.

I think that some students are forced into uncomfortable ethical dilemmas based on the restrictions surrounding financial support for higher education. If you are trying to pay your own way, by working 20-40 hours per week, but you only qualify for scholarships or merit aid if you are "full-time" (usually at least 12 credit hours), then there is not sufficient time in the week to do well in all of your classes. If schools were more flexible about providing aid to part-time students, students might make different choices.

Of course, there will always be some students who make bad choices, regardless of how the system is structured.

[onehappyunicorn]

I have a student who has now missed their 8th class of the semester. We have very few in-person classes and the caps are very limited so I am annoyed that this student is taking the spot of someone who could have really benefitted from the class. It's an elective but several of our four-year partners want the class for transfer.

[teach_write_research]

I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.

Just in case others are having similar thoughts: Taking on financial aid debt is not a scam. apl68 seems to be inferring rampant scamming from a few isolated cases that are clustering together in a conversation on teaching frustrations. Slow down any rush to judgment.

The students are following the federal regulations and institutional policies as best they can while caught in family disruptions and deaths, illness, concussions, mental health crises, etc. that do not adhere to the limited academic term. I usually estimate about 20% of students in my classes each term are going to need accommodations, 5% or less are going to have extreme crises that require a close look at institutional policies and procedures and federal regulations. It's definitely higher with COVID.

So back to the frustration. cathwen - yes, totally puzzling. I think mainly it's the lack of communication that frustrates me as I try to balance reasonable flexibility and sticking to course policies.

[the_geneticist]

Most of my TAs are responsible, organized, and need little supervision.
But yikes do I have a few that need to step it up.
I provide answer keys and grading guides.  Do they follow them? sort of
Are they at least consistent in how they don't follow them? nope
Do they at least finish their grading by the expected deadline? nope

I need to have a private Zoom chat with some of them.  The points will not "even out" if you are tougher grading one week than another.  No, you can't give students more points if they "wrote a lot".  Yes, you do have to give feedback so students know what they missed.  If I tell you that you need to go back and rescore a certain question, I mean it. 

I know it takes time & training to be a consistent grader, but I'm starting to suspect that two of them are just inattentive/lazy.

[Caracal]

I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.

I think that some students are forced into uncomfortable ethical dilemmas based on the restrictions surrounding financial support for higher education. If you are trying to pay your own way, by working 20-40 hours per week, but you only qualify for scholarships or merit aid if you are "full-time" (usually at least 12 credit hours), then there is not sufficient time in the week to do well in all of your classes. If schools were more flexible about providing aid to part-time students, students might make different choices.

Of course, there will always be some students who make bad choices, regardless of how the system is structured.

Well, and I think the problem is that these choices are going to have different sorts of long term effects depending on the student's circumstances. 18-21 year olds don't always make good decisions. I have a family member who was trying to balance various life events and parental expectations and handled it by just vanishing from all of his classes. In the end it was fine, he took a couple of years off and by the time he went back to school he was older and better able to manage things. However, he wasn't facing financial pressures, didn't have any student loans, had a supportive family network and all the rest. If he had been in a more marginal position, that kind of decision could have resulted in real problems.

[apl68]

I sometimes get the impression from comments I see here that in some colleges there is rampant scamming by students who are enrolling only to collect financial aid, not to get an education.

Just in case others are having similar thoughts: Taking on financial aid debt is not a scam. apl68 seems to be inferring rampant scamming from a few isolated cases that are clustering together in a conversation on teaching frustrations. Slow down any rush to judgment.

The students are following the federal regulations and institutional policies as best they can while caught in family disruptions and deaths, illness, concussions, mental health crises, etc. that do not adhere to the limited academic term. I usually estimate about 20% of students in my classes each term are going to need accommodations, 5% or less are going to have extreme crises that require a close look at institutional policies and procedures and federal regulations. It's definitely higher with COVID.

Actually I was suspecting (hoping, anyway) that something like this was the case.  In making my comment I was hoping to elicit a corrective response like this.  Thank you. 

I'm really hoping that a) these cases aren't as common as the comments on the threads sometimes make them seem and b) that most have more innocent explanations.  Although the incidence of students' educations being disrupted by family problems, etc. does seem worryingly high.

[EdnaMode]

I just had a student spend an hour and a half of his lab time working on the least important part of the final project - something that is only worth 3% of the project grade. I prompted him a few times, "Shouldn't you be working on [hard part that takes the most time]?" His answer was "Yeah, I'll get to that." This is the same student who continually asks things like, "What units should we use?" and I reply, "What does it say on the instructions?" I'm pretty sure he'll pass the class, but he'll spend the last lab of the semester next week panicking as to whether he's going to get done or not.

[darkstarrynight]

I got an email a few nights ago from a student: "I do not understand the final project."
I wrote back immediately offering to address specific questions hu had over email, but if hu needed more help, we could talk over the phone.
Last night, the student responded, "Call me tomorrow night at this number at 7:30 PM."

I do not work that way - I am not at someone's beck and call. If they want to meet, I need some options into the future because my schedule tends to book up about a week or two out. The student's message was so vague, and I (unfortunately) already have night meetings with students, classes, or doctoral cohorts. I asked hu to please send me different day and time options so we might both be available to meet. Sigh.