Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[AvidReader]

Just got another email asking about extra credit to raise a 77% to a B. Nope. Sorry. That's not how it works.

I have noticed that a lot of these emails I've been getting are from high school kids taking college courses. Did they learn somewhere along the way that extra credit will save the day? SMH.

I've taught college classes to high schoolers in three states. One of these states had a statewide lottery scholarship that gave students with a certain GPA and certain ACT score a lot of money towards college. My high school students panicked with anything below an A--on any work, not just in the course--because a lower GPA meant less or no money. A huge percentage dropped after receiving B's on Paper 2. And I was told (by teachers, not students) that some of the HS teachers do use extra credit to help their students (which, in turn, also looks better for the school).

AR.

[Anon1787]

Double post.

I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...

I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.

It's a combination of Stu using a phone for the course, not reading the announcements, and deciding that it doesn't hurt to ask just in case the instructor caves to these demands. I once had to use the analogy of a five-year-old repeatedly asking Mom for something that Mom had explicitly refused earlier. The students in this class had a sense of humor, so no one was offended when I pointed out that this sometimes works with Mom, but not with a professor.

Good point about using a phone. The small screen makes it easy to overlook something and hard to read anything longer than a text message.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Double post.

I swear, I feel like I'm wasting my time with some of these students. I have been carefully scrutinizing the wording that I use so that I am as clear as possible in my announcements, syllabi, communications, etc. and I STILL get an email asking if stu can use lab reports on the Midterm. Um, no, it says, in multiple places, that NO, you cannot use notes, labs, etc. I have a Testing Rules pdf file, it is stated explicitly on the test itself, it's in the syllabus...

I'm so frustrated with some of these students right now.

It's a combination of Stu using a phone for the course, not reading the announcements, and deciding that it doesn't hurt to ask just in case the instructor caves to these demands. I once had to use the analogy of a five-year-old repeatedly asking Mom for something that Mom had explicitly refused earlier. The students in this class had a sense of humor, so no one was offended when I pointed out that this sometimes works with Mom, but not with a professor.

Good point about using a phone. The small screen makes it easy to overlook something and hard to read anything longer than a text message.

Actually, I didn't mention that this student wanted to have stu's lab reports as a 'slide show' on another device for reference during the exam.

[kaysixteen]

WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins.   What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?

[FishProf]

What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?

In my experience, Professor X gets feeble pushback from HS admins, reminds them this is a college course, and that is the end of it.

Then again, I am no longer teaching Dual-Enrollment classes.  I don't know if there is a link.

[ergative]

WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins.   What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?

I think there's nothing wrong with enforcing a stated syllabus policy. Using notes on a closed-book quiz is straightforwardly cheating. But I do think there are problems with professors not responding to emails, even if they're super annoying and repetitive. At a minimum, the professor should make a class-wide announcement (in writing--by email or Moodle announcement, or whatever CMS there is) to say 'Hey, I'm getting lots of questions about open-notes on quizzes. Remember, this is bad and cheating and see pg 4 of the syllabus.'

It's such an easy step to take to avoid the hassle that might ensue if the professor ignores a student email and then punishes the student for doing the thing they said they would do in the email. Sure, probablyl in the end the grade appeal board or student conduct board or whatever will eventually agree with the professor. But why let it get to that stage, when answering emails with 'see pg 4 of the syllabus' or posting a periodic reminder to see pg 4 of the syllabus can head it all off at the pass?

[Caracal]

WRT hs students taking college classes (or, for that matter, new college frosh) asking for grade accommodations, even those that are explicitly contrary to stated syllabus policies, many of these kids are explicitly used to doing exactly that in hs, often at the express direction of their parents, and many teachers there often give in to such requests, out of fear of parents/ admins.   What exactly would happen if Prof. X, having clearly stated syllabus policies forbidding, say, open notes quizzes, and having tired of constant student requests for exceptions to that policy, simply stopped responding to such requests... and punished students who ignored the policy and atttempted to use said notes on the quiz?

I can't really understand how it would get to that point. Before I give an exam, I always say "please put everything away except x." (in my case, a blue book and a blank piece of paper for outlining) I then do a cursory scan to make sure everyone actually has put everything away. If a student isn't supposed to have anything on their desk and they have their notebook open, wouldn't you just come over and tell them to put it away before you handed out the exam?

[EdnaMode]

Stu is taking my section of an introductory engineering course for the third time. He took it once with me and late dropped, took it with a colleague and failed, and now he's on his third and final chance. In our program, to take a class again after late dropping or failing twice requires forms and signatures from multiple people. So, Stu had to put in a lot of effort to take the class again. Wish he was putting in as much effort trying to actually pass it this time. He's worked his way down to a D, routinely skips lecture, has skipped a few labs, and I've flagged him in the early intervention system, talked to him about his lack of participation and its impact on his grade, and he doesn't seem that bothered. **sigh** I can't care more than he does, but if he fails again, he's out of engineering. The worst part, at least to me, is the work he does do is pretty good and he could easily pass. I just get the feeling that he doesn't want to be here.

[secundem_artem]

Stu is taking my section of an introductory engineering course for the third time. He took it once with me and late dropped, took it with a colleague and failed, and now he's on his third and final chance. In our program, to take a class again after late dropping or failing twice requires forms and signatures from multiple people. So, Stu had to put in a lot of effort to take the class again. Wish he was putting in as much effort trying to actually pass it this time. He's worked his way down to a D, routinely skips lecture, has skipped a few labs, and I've flagged him in the early intervention system, talked to him about his lack of participation and its impact on his grade, and he doesn't seem that bothered. **sigh** I can't care more than he does, but if he fails again, he's out of engineering. The worst part, at least to me, is the work he does do is pretty good and he could easily pass. I just get the feeling that he doesn't want to be here.

Stu does not want to be an engineer.  Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.

[mamselle]

+1.

Capacity but no motivation = parental pressure. Does the school have an internship program in any aspect of engineering?

That might help weed out the true, aspiring engineers from the kids whose mommies and daddies told them it was a good job and that's what they should do.

M.

[secundem_artem]

+1.

Capacity but no motivation = parental pressure. Does the school have an internship program in any aspect of engineering?

That might help weed out the true, aspiring engineers from the kids whose mommies and daddies told them it was a good job and that's what they should do.

M.

I teach in an allied health program that leads to professional licensure and good job opportunities.  A while back, we had a student who very much did NOT want to pursue the degree we had on offer.  She tried repeatedly to flunk out.  Sadly, her mother was the Chair of the Board of Trustees and everybody on the faculty knew it.  NOBODY was going to take the risk of flunking out the daughter of the board chair.  We all found some excuse to heave the kid across the line and into the next course.  She eventually graduated, but as far as anybody knows, is NOT working in the profession helicopter mommy chose for her.

[EdnaMode]

Stu does not want to be an engineer.  Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.

That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.

And to mamselle (can't figure out how to double quote), we do have internships, require them actually so the students can get a taste of the realities of the field, but they need to get past their first-year courses in order to apply. I hope this particular student (he's nice enough, and I've asked him before if he really wants to be here, and he's always said yes) figures out sooner rather than later what he would like to do other than be a mechanical engineer.

[mamselle]

Yes, then he could add it to the list of, as Edison is said to have put it, includes the "499 things that don't work" for him.

M.

[apl68]

Stu does not want to be an engineer.  Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.

That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.

You have to feel sorry for a student in such a position.  But you've seen evidence that the student can do good work when engaged?  I wonder what the student would like to do.  Another STEM field?  Something outside of STEM? 

I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand.  What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort.  It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.

[EdnaMode]

Stu does not want to be an engineer.  Stu's parents want him to be an engineer.

That's most likely true. In the past I have had students ask me if I'd talk to their designated grownups (parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc.) and tell them that Stu doesn't like engineering, doesn't want to be in engineering, and they should allow Stu to make their own choices. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it hasn't. But every time I've done that, the student has thanked me for at least trying.

You have to feel sorry for a student in such a position.  But you've seen evidence that the student can do good work when engaged?  I wonder what the student would like to do.  Another STEM field?  Something outside of STEM? 

I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this first hand.  What I've seen has been would-be engineers (and other majors) failing because they simply lacked the self discipline and maturity to give their college work an honest effort.  It astonishes me how some students can just blow off an opportunity that another student would have dearly liked to have taken.

I'm not sure what he wants because when I ask (politely and kindly) if he really wants to be here, or wants to do something else, he says that he does want to be here and study engineering. I've even suggested he go to our career counselors, etc. but no dice. That is why it truly makes it a bang my head in despair situation for me, he's smart, and capable when he wants to be, but is just floating along with no direction wasting his, or someone else's, money and taking up a seat someone else could have. But, I can't make his decisions for him, and there's only so much prodding I can do.