Topic: Bang Your Head on Your Desk - the thread of teaching despair!

[smallcleanrat]

That student just seems to be performing dumbness as a method of voicing annoyance at being a student.

But there is a more general issue of when it is useful to explain the relevance of material. Sometimes I teach very abstract stuff and I do work at showing the relevance.

Now I'm wondering if there is a way a student can directly ask "why do I need to know this?" as a polite question and not a whining complaint?

Even said in a polite tone and without the overconfident ignorance of statements like "I'll never need this." it seems like the question itself can still come across as rude.

How could a student convey the message "I assume the prof is covering this topic for a good reason, but I don't see what that reason is and I wish someone would explain it to me?"

I think the closest I heard was a student saying "um...not to be rude, but what is the point of memorizing all these details when in the real world we can look things up?" Don't remember the prof's answer but do remember student seemed satisfied with it.

If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense.  (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)

In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"

That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...

[marshwiggle]

If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense.  (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)

In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"

That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...

Not necessarily. Say there is an elective course on polling, which covers design of surveys, sampling, analysis, etc. It could appeal to (at least) poli sci students, math/stats students, business students, sociology or psychology students. (It could also be of interest to students in education, planning, or lots of other things where people may want to take surveys.)

In saying "Why are you taking the course?", it reflects the fact that all kinds of possible topics would be of interest to possibly only a subset of the students. (eg. Mathematical details of the analysis might only interest math/stats students, while details about sampling may not interest some students who are interested in surveying "captive audiences", where everyone in the population will be included.)

So depending on why the student took the course, the prof could admit that for this particular student, this specific topic isn't going to be very important for their interest.  Nevertheless the student still may be responsible for it on tests, assignments, etc.

[smallcleanrat]

If the course is an elective, then I'm not sure the idea even makes sense.  (If a student chooses to take my course, then I'm going to try to provide as much "value for money" as possible. Anything I include is going to be, in principle, relevant to the topic.)

In that case, is there a non-snarky way for the prof to respond "I don't know; why are you taking this course?"

That response would just reinforce the notion that the prof's decision to cover the topic was arbitrary...

Not necessarily. Say there is an elective course on polling, which covers design of surveys, sampling, analysis, etc. It could appeal to (at least) poli sci students, math/stats students, business students, sociology or psychology students. (It could also be of interest to students in education, planning, or lots of other things where people may want to take surveys.)

In saying "Why are you taking the course?", it reflects the fact that all kinds of possible topics would be of interest to possibly only a subset of the students. (eg. Mathematical details of the analysis might only interest math/stats students, while details about sampling may not interest some students who are interested in surveying "captive audiences", where everyone in the population will be included.)

So depending on why the student took the course, the prof could admit that for this particular student, this specific topic isn't going to be very important for their interest.  Nevertheless the student still may be responsible for it on tests, assignments, etc.

Sure, context matters.

Assuming the student's question is genuine (and not a thinly veiled complaint), it could still be educational for them to learn how specific topics are relevant to other interests besides their own.

[Aster]

In my experience, the vast majority of students who toss out the "this isn't relevant to me" complaint are 1st year students, a large proportion of which I'll never see at a graduation because they dropped out of college.

And that is fine. College is not for everyone. There are many fine employment opportunities in the world for people who only desire vocational and/or direct application-based knowledge.

Also in my experience, there is a vast difference between the types of students who complain about the relevancy of their curriculum, vs. the types of students who earnestly ask questions about the application of their curriculum.

The complaining students really don't give a crap. They're usually C-students at best, but more commonly are D and F students. The smarter ones take my advice, drop the class early, and either change majors or reevaluate their professional goals. But most of them are not that smart and will get the D or F.

The ones who earnestly inquire about curricula relevancy rarely ever make the inquiry during class time. They will ask during office hours, they'll be polite about it, they'll ask follow-up questions and also often segue directly into an academic advising session.

[apl68]

In my experience, the vast majority of students who toss out the "this isn't relevant to me" complaint are 1st year students, a large proportion of which I'll never see at a graduation because they dropped out of college.

And that is fine. College is not for everyone. There are many fine employment opportunities in the world for people who only desire vocational and/or direct application-based knowledge.

Also in my experience, there is a vast difference between the types of students who complain about the relevancy of their curriculum, vs. the types of students who earnestly ask questions about the application of their curriculum.

The complaining students really don't give a crap. They're usually C-students at best, but more commonly are D and F students. The smarter ones take my advice, drop the class early, and either change majors or reevaluate their professional goals. But most of them are not that smart and will get the D or F.

The ones who earnestly inquire about curricula relevancy rarely ever make the inquiry during class time. They will ask during office hours, they'll be polite about it, they'll ask follow-up questions and also often segue directly into an academic advising session.

The multiple "head-desks" we've had just now involving students who are uninterested in going to the effort to study anything that they can't immediately see the use for, or stuff they think they could just easily "look up," points up the way so many college students have no interest in, or love for, learning in general.  At least not the sort that college is supposed to provide.  I guess there's not much sense in trying to force them through college if it's not what they really want. 

It could perhaps be helpful for profs teaching things that aren't as obviously "relevant" to address areas of relevance that students might not be aware of already.

[Aster]

It could perhaps be helpful for profs teaching things that aren't as obviously "relevant" to address areas of relevance that students might not be aware of already.

Yeah.

At selective universities, there would likely be little need, as the vast majority of students attending those institutions are college-ready and had to compete to get in. The R1 and selective SLAC students will complain, but about other things generally.

But at non-selective universities where anyone with a heartbeat and a credit card can enroll, there may be a large subset of the student population that is neither college-ready nor so much motivated enough to complete the university experience. Professors employed at such institutions may need to exercise greater classroom management, yet still be prepared for ambush complaints during class time.

A good syllabus, which might include well-written Learning Objectives, is also a great tool in the toolbox.

Stu Dent: "Professor, how is blah blah blah relevant to the course?"
Me: "You can find that posted in the Learning Objectives in the syllabus."

Stu Dent: "Professor, how is blah blah blah relevant to my major?"
Me: "You can find that posted in the course description in the syllabus."

The Batman slap meme generator is also great to use during 1st day orientation.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstfuhero.com%2F&psig=AOvVaw2reQTlzgcnxjTBSfTdVANZ&ust=1645822241314000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCKjZx-KbmfYCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

[the_geneticist]

We ask our new TAs what they are doing that is helping their students learn.  Most have really thoughtful, useful idea (write the schedule for class on the board, have students discuss ideas in groups, using a rubric for grading, etc.). 

Others, not so much (make their own slide deck & repeat the lecture in discussion, see if anyone is nodding, give students even more papers to read).

And then we got this gem: "I tell students I am available 24/7 for their questions".

Telling students you are "available 24/7" is a recipe for burnout.  Just saying.

[ergative]

Yes, I'm constantly finding I need to tell my TAs to QUIT VOLUNTEERING to work for free, and QUIT OFFERING to hold online lessons when they're too sick to come in to campus to teach their n-person seminars. My friend, if you're too sick to teach, then you should not be teaching.

It's sweet of them, but it is yet another of the numerous recipes for burnout.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I need to use that slap meme generator.

I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.

[the_geneticist]

I need to use that slap meme generator.

I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.

You mean the "due date" isn't the "do the assignment" date?!
Maybe try making the assignments due at midnight and make it clear you will not answer emails after 4:00.
If they want help, then they have to start at least a bit earlier.

[downer]

I put up a discussion forum on the LMS where students can ask questions among each other about the work. Sometimes students are willing to help out other students, especially when I provide incentives for students to be helpful. The downside is when know-nothing students give wrong answers to other students, but that is rare.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I need to use that slap meme generator.

I'm so tired of students emailing me an hour before a lab is due to ask questions about it (and the questions imply that they just started looking at it). I may have to have a 'talk' with them next week.

You mean the "due date" isn't the "do the assignment" date?!
Maybe try making the assignments due at midnight and make it clear you will not answer emails after 4:00.
If they want help, then they have to start at least a bit earlier.

I have a syllabus statement which says that I don't answer email after 5pm. We're going to have a 'Come to Jesus' talk next week.

[the_geneticist]

I put up a discussion forum on the LMS where students can ask questions among each other about the work. Sometimes students are willing to help out other students, especially when I provide incentives for students to be helpful. The downside is when know-nothing students give wrong answers to other students, but that is rare.

I've been hanging out of the class Discord site and there are students who obviously don't pay attention or read the syllabus happily saying things like "we don't have a quiz!" or "does [assignment in other class] count for points in [this class]?"  They can't keep track of the difference between their biology lecture, chemistry lecture, biology lab, and chemistry lab.  And they have discussions too.  Ironically, they do have separate Discord thread for each of these.
I feel for the students, I mean, it's a LOT to organize.  But it's all in the syllabus.  Get a calendar or day planner, write the stuff down.

[Langue_doc]

Stu who waits until the deadline to submit assignments writes at 5:05 PM:

I tried every document formatting method, and I am still unable to, would you be able to reopen the assignment as a file upload?

The only file type allowed: Word document
File attached in Stu's email: PDF
Deadline: 5 PM

The class has been uploading Word documents since the first week of class.

The assignment was to submit the draft of a paper for peer review. The only place for submitting reviews is the assigned folder in Canvas.

Stu #2 at 5:04

I tried submitting the paper multiple times but it says it failed. I am so sorry I am not home but I will attach the essay here. So sorry I don't have wifi. I am using a hotspot.

Stu, you don't have wifi, but chose to enroll in an online course. Why would you rely on a hotspot to upload your assignment? Why wait until the deadline when you could have uploaded your assignment earlier as some of your classmates did?

Head bang, head bang, another head bang for a third stu's excuse. I am not responding to emails until 8 AM on Monday.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I have already received two emails this weekend from online students claiming to have disabilities and who need additional time for the exam that is due tomorrow. Our disability office has send me nothing about them and the stuff the kids are sending me is from last year.

Sigh. I want to help them, but they are not following protocol.